why only one sibling?

Motek

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 11:02 am

[quote]

Quote:

Why only one sibling?

The most common "evidence" cited to prove that parenting practices are not significant factors in causing adolescents to rebel, is that often only one of many siblings rebels. As one mechanech challenged me, "If the parents were cold and distant how did they manage to succeed with their other children?"

The assumption that parents succeeded with their other children is often based on superficial criteria, for example, the fact that the other children didn't rebel against yidishkeit. Often however, the other children have also been hurt, but in less obvious ways. Perhaps the other children lack self-confidence or suffer from low self-esteem. Sometimes some of the other children are quite depressed, but not to the point that it is obvious to other people. Even more misleading is when some of the other children become highly functioning perfectionists as a guilt-ridden reaction to constant criticism.17 What is clear is that one should not assume that the other children were not hurt based on superficial impressions. No one ever claimed that errors in parenting have to result in children going off the derech. It is only one of many possible negative consequences.

Even if it were clear that, in a particular case, the parents were successful in raising their other children, what relevance would that have to the parents' impact on one particular child's life? There are cases of undisputed, serious parental abuse where some of the children seem to have survived without major psychological damage. Does that prove that the problems that the other children suffer from were not caused by the abuse? If four people are in a car accident, and one passenger gets hurt while the other three escape unscratched, does that prove that it couldn't have been the accident that caused the injury?

Parents never treat all their children identically (e.g., boys vs. girls, youngest vs. oldest, etc.) and there can be other external factors unique to one of the siblings (as noted above from Alice Miller) that may make him more immune to the negative impact of parental maltreatment. Likewise, parents sometimes learn from their mistakes with one of their children and therefore are more successful with other children.

Based on informal surveys that I have conducted, for example, it seems that the vast majority of parents are significantly less strict with their later children than they were with their oldest children since they learn from experience that being overly rigid and strict is counterproductive. In such a situation, perhaps only the older child would develop a serious problem.

http://www.drsorotzkin.com/rol......html

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 7:10 pm

Mrs.Norris wrote:

you really like to blame the parents don't you? If it was only that do you think everyone would still be wondering exactly what it is that makes children rebel? Sometimes of course it is parents but not ALL the time.

oh right lets not blame the parents, after all parents today have nothing to do with a kids chinuch, lets blame it on everybody else instead but never the parents! Rolling Eyes

c'mon mrs.norris, you really think parents of kids who rebel are blameless.
Yes its true there are other factors involved, but does that mean we should not examine where parenting factors come into the picture?

Mrs.Norris

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 7:32 pm

EstiS wrote:

oh right lets not blame the parents, after all parents today have nothing to do with a kids chinuch, lets blame it on everybody else instead but never the parents! Rolling Eyes

Now you're just being facetious.
I never said they're always blameless, obviously in some cases it is because of the parents but in other cases it is often other things: surounding, school or just the childs own logic.

And sometimes a child can turn out perfect even with the worst parenting so ...

amother

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 8:27 pm

We sometimes see the greatest tzaddikim come out of the most broken homes-- and other times, we see totally off-the-derech kids come out of the most chassidish, amazing homes!

Yes, parents are responsible for a lot-- but not everything! We cannot give parents all the credit nor can we give them all the blame. Hashem also has a hand in things! Plus there are some neshamas that, for reasons we cannot understand, need to go a little farther away (off the derech), before they can come back with an even greater strength and fire that they could have achieved before.

amother

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 8:40 pm

Everyone has different personalities. So even if all the kids in the family were treated EXACTLY the same, there would still be different reactions to it. Hence it's a back & forth, & we don't parent each child the same. There are many factors as to what makes a child go "off the derech".Certainly parents are a major factor, but you never know if somewhere in their life a rebbi, teacher, camp counslor... said or did s/t that was the staw that broke the camels back. For exmple, I had a hs teacher who played blatant favorites. She was young,fun,creative.She started inviting girls over for shabbos, but only her favorites. One friend was having major home problems,parents getting divorced.This teacher was the final straw.It was senoir year, she had planned to go toE"Y but backed out, by the time we came back she was not interested in anything. So ofcourse the big thing was the home, but had the teacher taken her under her wing, who knows what could have been.

Motek

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 5:26 pm

Mrs.Norris wrote:

you really like to blame the parents don't you?

Who me? That post wasn't my words. It was written by Dr. Sorotzkin Psy.D., who has a full-time private practice in psychotherapy with adolescents and adults in Brooklyn.

Dr. Sorotzkin has published articles in professional journals such as Clinical Psychology Review, Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, The Psychotherapy Bulletin, The Journal of Psychology and Judaism, The Journal of Psychohistory and in Jewish periodicals such as The Jewish Observer, Jewish Action, The Jewish Parent Connection, and Parent to Parent Magazine.

Seems you confused me with him and are not open to hearing this professional's view. That's okay.

Quote:

And sometimes a child can turn out perfect even with the worst parenting so ...

Sure, so in that case, let's just not bother. What for?

thanks estiS Wink

Motek

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 5:34 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

If the kid is heilig, the parents get the naches, right? And the credit.

What are you suggesting - that parents who put in enormous efforts into their children shouldn't enjoy the nachas and be appreciated for their efforts? Do you personally know of any children born holy? I don't. Let's talk about the overwhelming majority, who are not born holy.

amother wrote:

We sometimes see the greatest tzaddikim come out of the most broken homes

Do you know any of these tzaddikim personally? Can you give us some examples?

Quote:

and other times, we see totally off-the-derech kids come out of the most chassidish, amazing homes!

see the other thread, "When they come from a good home" in this section and the quote from Dr. Sorotzkin. He used to believe that too, that they have amazing homes. He has since learned, it's not true.

amother

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 6:01 pm

Quote:

amother wrote:
We sometimes see the greatest tzaddikim come out of the most broken homes

Do you know any of these tzaddikim personally? Can you give us some examples?

I would never call myself a tzaddekes, but I think I'm B"H a fairly healthy person, and B"H, I have a lot of friends, and a lot of people respect me and look up to me... And my parents are both very crazy. Several of their "friends" have said both to me and to others that they absolutely cannot believe how normal and amazing I turned out given my childhood in that home.

chavamom

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 8:17 pm

Posted this on another thread, but for an alternative view point from R. Yaakov Horowitz (and it appears that you have quoted an article from both Dr. Sorotzkin and R. Horowitz)

From Rabbi Ya'akov Horowitz:

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Over the past twenty years, I conducted hundreds of terribly painful ‘exit interviews’ with children and adults who have abandoned Yiddishkeit. I can tell you in no uncertain terms what it is that they wanted – and why they took their business elsewhere. They were looking for respect and understanding. Acceptance. Safe and nurturing home lives. Hands-on parents who offer unconditional love along with their guidance. Caring educators who dealt with their admitted misdeeds gently and privately (firmly was OK). The ability to be a bit different without being labeled or judged. More time for hobbies and more recreational opportunities. On an educational level, I can tell you some additional things that they needed. A slower pace of learning. More skill-based teaching (#1, #2 and #3). Visual and diverse learning (#1, #2, #3) .

With this in mind, I would think that the frightened parents in the community ought to shorten the hours that their children are in school, offer more extra-curricular activities, clamor for more tolerance, invest in the educators of their children, and boycott the schools that dismiss children for misdeeds. The community leaders would do well to meet with the mental-health professionals and those who deal with the ‘at-risk’ teen population, perhaps even with the troubled kids themselves, and listen – really listen – to their advice. I would love to tell you that this is happening. It pains me to report that this is usually not the case. Those of us who deal with at-risk kids are consulted in firefighter mode by desperate parents and educators – but little time and energy is being spent in fire prevention. They are asking us what to do with the at-risk kids, but not what we think should be done for all our children.

In many communities, I’m sad to report, exactly the opposite is happening. School hours are getting longer and longer. Kids have less time and opportunity to engage in desperately needed recreational activities. In fact, in some communities, normal sports activities are frowned upon or outright banned – sometimes for children above the age of ten years old!! Greater demands are being made on children. Schools that dismiss children are valued and pursued. Acceptance criterion for high schools is getting increasingly more challenging. On many occasions, I have clearly stated that in today’s climate I would probably not have been accepted to any ‘normal’ high school when I graduated eighth grade thirty-three years ago!!

See the entire article here

greenfire

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 8:25 pm

im almost sorry I opened this thread ... yeah go ahead again and blame the parents ... even mr physcologist ... it happens to be that some things are the demons which brew inside the person/child their genes perhaps - but not necessarily parent - could be grant parent ... how people treat them does have cause and effect ... including the professionals whom all seem to think thye know it all yet nobody knows what to do ... proof as they each have a different solution ... well you know in the end the only person who really cares IS THE PARENT and if you're lucky maybe 2 ...

oh and I forgot it is not always only 1 sibling ... and sometimes it has to do with amount of siblings ...

amother

Mon, Aug 27 2007, 1:04 am

Quote:

We sometimes see the greatest tzaddikim come out of the most broken homes-- and other times, we see totally off-the-derech kids come out of the most chassidish, amazing homes!

how do you know they are "most chassidish, amazing homes"? A family looks like a great family on the outside. You don't have even a shemetz of a clue of what is really going on. Ironically, DH and I were just talking about this last night. Before he went out with me, when the shidduch was red, he asked the shadchan just one question- is the girl on medicine? The shadchan (obviously a little young and naive and inexperienced) laughed and said- "are you kidding?! This family- no way!" Well, guess what? I have one sibling on anti-depressents and another that should be. And you would never know. And for sure its from the parents, at least in a big way, although obviously not totally. Obviously a person's personality and temperament will effect him also, but more then that it will effect the way he reacts to the "parent sitch". And every kid is "mistreated" differently and to diff degrees. And maybe if we took our heads out of the sand and recog that even amazing families can have major problems, then we can deal with them, instead of just saying- so and so fam, can't be they have a problem and then the poor kids don't get helped bec e/o is in denial.

Motek

Fri, Aug 31 2007, 8:51 am

chavamom wrote:

I've noticed you quote Dr. Sorotzkin often and if he is the final authority on the matter. Dr. Sorotzkin said it, it's settled. Over and over again you belabor the point and do not present other views (in fact, present Dr. Sorotzkin's rebuttal to any other POV's). This is why people see it as if *you* are blaming people. It's not what you say, it's all in how you present it mamaleh Wink

That's funny. You would like me to present views that sit well with you! YOU can go ahead and quote whoever suits you, you know. And you've quoted R' Horowitz a few times. Well you know what? R' Horowitz posted Dr. Sorotzkin's article on his blog, so seems R' Horowitz would like to promote him too ...

In another thread I started called "When they come from a good home," which was also from Dr. Sorotzkin as posted by R' Horowitz, I posted a comment that a woman put up on R' Horowitz's blog in which she had the guts to concede:

Quote:

This is the scariest article on chinuch I've ever read. As I read it, I kept trying to deny the truth of what he was saying, but as he went along, he skillfully proved the falsehood in my denials.

You don't want to hear it from me. Maybe you can hear it from her.