why only one sibling?

southernbubby

Sun, Sep 02 2007, 2:54 pm

I wonder what role poverty plays in the child's decision to leave yiddishkeit. My children are all BH frum, which is a gift from the Abishter because we are BTs and I have little background (my husband went to day school). Because my husband is BH a physician, I did not have to leave the kids in day care and go to work. If we were unhappy with whatever was going on in their school, we were able to use the fact that we paid full tuition as leverage and often had our demands met. While paying tuition meant that we did not have the means to shower our kids with luxuries, we still were able to provide the basics (such as tutors) which families with limited financial means struggled to do.
I was not a better mother than those whose kids left the derech. Some of those kids stated that they did not want to raise another generation in poverty. At least that is the reason that they gave their parents for leaving. I gave my kids lots of love and attention but that is something that is hard to measure and qualify. If mother X and mother Y both claim to love their kids, how do we measure which one loves more?
If poverty and economics play a role in the trend to leave yiddishkeit, maybe we should be targeting the causes of poverty.

Motek

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 10:30 am

southernbubby wrote:

I wonder what role poverty plays in the child's decision to leave yiddishkeit....
If poverty and economics play a role in the trend to leave yiddishkeit, maybe we should be targeting the causes of poverty.

I wonder what role being wealthy plays in a child's decision to leave yiddishkeit. There are well-to-do families where the kids get plenty of clothes and gadgetry and trips, they develop a certain attitude/view on life, they are "bagrubt" (spiritually coarsened) by gashmius. In some of these homes, live-in housekeepers care for the children while mom plays tennis or goes to the salon. These children don't all remain frum. If wealth plays a role in the trend to leave yiddishkeit, maybe we should be doing something about that.

re poverty - Chazal say, be careful with the children of the poor because Torah comes from them

Motek

Thu, Sep 06 2007, 6:37 pm

in response to chavamom and others:

Quote:

Acknowledging Cause and Effect vs. Assigning Blame

Why hurt parents who are already in pain?

The second major objection to attributing the problem of adolescent rebelliousness to parenting factors is that it makes parents feel bad. I find difficult to comprehend this reasoning. Would we ever consider not telling an ignorant smoker that his habit is endangering his life, for the sake of not hurting his feelings? If parents are not made aware that their approach is contributing to their child's problem, why should they be motivated to change it?

In a recent conference, a mother of a youngster who went off the derech and is currently abusing drugs, wondered how this tragedy could happen in a beautiful family such as hers. Yet, in the same breath, she noted that her husband still tells their son that he still expects him to be a big talmid chacham and tzadik!

Is it an act of kindness not to at least discuss with these parents the possibility that their excessive expectations may have been a major contributing factor to their son's troubles? Most importantly, should we not tell them that if they become more accepting of their son and have realistic expectations of him, they might be able to save him?

It is important to emphasize that acknowledging the role of parents in the development of their children's emotional difficulties and acting out behaviors is not an issue of moral condemnation or assigning blame. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with the words of an eminent therapist (Karon, 2000) who spoke of the need to enlist the aid of parents in the treatment of emotionally disturbed patients;

This may seem strange because so many of the therapeutic issues have to do with hurtful experiences concerning their [parents], but typically the destructive parenting experiences have derived from [the] unconscious defenses of the parent. The parents had no conscious knowledge or control of these defenses, and in most cases are very decent people who would never consciously hurt their child. Often they will go to great lengths to help their child.. [p. 43]

http://www.drsorotzkin.com/rol......html

Motek

Thu, Sep 06 2007, 6:41 pm

Quote:

I began to more directly (albeit, gently) point out to parents how their parenting approach (e.g., being overly critical and negative) directly contributed to their children's problem. To my surprise, I found that the majority of parents were quite receptive if this was presented in a sympathetic and respectful manner. In fact, many of the parents began to admonish me for not getting the word out to other parents. It is mostly in response to their prompting that this paper was written.

There is another reason why I am troubled by the well-meaning effort to spare parents from the painful truth. Why don't we have the same sensitivity and consideration for the child's pain? If we take the attitude that parenting practices is not a significant factor in their children's problems, then the child is left to take full responsibility. In fact, as indicated above, this only reinforces the attitude children already have anyway that it must be all their own fault.

"Levi" was on acting-out older adolescent. His father was physically abusive to his wife and emotionally abusive to his children. Once, in reaction to his mother's criticism, Levi complained, "How you expect me to act normally when I grew up in a crazy house?" In response, his mother chided him, "It's no excuse. What happened in the past is over. You have to take responsibility for your actions!" A little later in the conversation, he confided in his mother that he feels a great deal of anger and resentment toward his father for the way he has treated the family. "Oh," responded his mother, "You really shouldn't be angry at your father. After all, his parents were busy educating Yidishe children and had no time for him. It's really isn't his fault." It took Levi some time to acknowledge the obvious double standard in his mother's attitude.

The following event is typical. A parent who attributed his son's problem behaviors to school issues, at first claimed that he had a good relationship with his son. It was only after some direct, probing questions that he opened up and admitted to being a very negative person (he saw himself as very similar to his own father in this regard). As he spoke about this problem at length, he was able to actually see how this had impacted negatively on his son. He also resolved to try and repair his relationship with his son. Would I have been kinder to him if I would have spared him this information?

When speaking to youngsters, it is also necessary to ask specific and direct questions regarding their relationship with their parents, since they also tend to repress and/or deny the negative aspects of these relationships (Moses, 1989). This is another reason that even experienced clinicians are often convinced that the problem of rebellious adolescents can occur even in a home with the most positive and emotionally supportive parent - child relationships.

Recently, a young adult from a well-known and respected family stated, in our initial conversation that, "I didn't have a particularly hard life." Only in response to a series of direct question did he state that there was "absolutely no sholom bayis in our house." His parents have not spoken to each other in years and live in separate rooms. In his younger years he often observed his father being physically abusive to his mother. Most of his siblings suffer from some form of emotional disorder. Nonetheless he sincerely believed, at some level, that he didn't have a particularly hard life!

Once the therapist ascertains what it was in the child's early home environment that made him or her vulnerable to becoming a rebellious teenager, the next step is to help the parents understand this without causing them to be overly defensive. It must be made clear to them that the purpose of this exercise is not to blame them but rather to set the foundation for repairing the relationship with their child and thus reduce the level of his or her problem behaviors.

http://www.drsorotzkin.com/rol......html

southernbubby

Thu, Sep 06 2007, 7:32 pm

While I am sure that this psychologist's approach helps many families, often the circumstances are beyond anyone's control. I have seen kids from what seemed to be fine families go off because they wanted to go to college and become professionals after living a life of deprivation at home. The financial state at home was beyond anyone's ability to change and I am sure that the parents tried to make the children feel that they were not deprived but unfortunately were not successful.
I think that most people want shalom bayis and positive relationships and it is part of the human condition to have to constantly struggle to achieve these things. Often parents do not know which road to take. For example, I feel that by teaching my teens to drive, I was able to relate better to them and create a more positive relationship. Many frum people though, would say that I gave them too much freedom. Some families get good results by having very strict rules about tznius and others find that the kids rebel on grand scale if they do not give in to something.
Once, when I was subbing in a public school, an off the derech child came to me and wanted to explain why he was there. He had a lot of questions about the essence of Jewish belief that he claimed everyone had refused to answer. His family had tried every possible approach. Fortunately, as an adult, he came back.