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amother




Slateblue


Post  Mon, Nov 14 2016, 9:17 pm
We live in one of the larger frum OOT communities and are seriously considering adopting a puppy? Are we crazy?! All you puppy owners with young kids, how did you do it? Was it difficult training the puppy? Is it comparable to having a newborn/toddler in the house? Did some friends stop visiting your home, since they were scared of the dog? What do you do in shabbos? Are dogs muktza? What about dogs that don't shed, so hair less likely to come out? Did you our have a dog from a breeder? Is it worth spending 3x as much on a puppy who comes with a lifetime guarantee against genetic defects, and they will pay for any simple things that newly adopted puppies sometimes get. Thanks!!
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Mon, Nov 14 2016, 10:16 pm
amother wrote:
We live in one of the larger frum OOT communities and are seriously considering adopting a puppy? Are we crazy?!

~No, you are not crazy. Lots of frum people have dogs.

All you puppy owners with young kids, how did you do it? Was it difficult training the puppy? Is it comparable to having a newborn/toddler in the house?

~Dogs are toddlers who never grow up. Raising a puppy is every bit as time consuming as raising a baby. You'll have to train your kids how to behave with the dog, too. I suggest adopting an older dog who is more settled down.

Did some friends stop visiting your home, since they were scared of the dog?

~It's important to respect your visitor's fears or allergies. Keep the dog in a closed bedroom with a water dish and a blanket until the guest leaves. A chew toy will keep the dog from barking.

What do you do in shabbos? Are dogs muktza?

~Your own dog is not muktza, but someone else's dog is. You should not pick up the dog unless you really have to, and should not brush the dog on Shabbos. If you have to walk the dog, check with your LOR about eruv status. If the eruv goes down, you'll have to handle the leash in a different way.

What about dogs that don't shed, so hair less likely to come out?

~Poodles, Portuguese Water Dogs, and Rhodesian Ridgebacks are hypoallergenic. Poodles do not shed at all, but they do need regular grooming.

Did you our have a dog from a breeder? Is it worth spending 3x as much on a puppy who comes with a lifetime guarantee against genetic defects, and they will pay for any simple things that newly adopted puppies sometimes get.

~I bred and showed Australian Shepherds for over 10 years. Most breeders want to get rid of the puppies at 6 to 8 weeks, which is WAY too young in my opinion. I never let my puppies go until they were at least 10 to 12 weeks, and I made sure they had their first set of shots and a full vet record, along with all registration papers.

~There is no guarantee that any dog will be free from genetic defects. One of my puppies ended up having epilepsy, and there wasn't any record of it for 4 generations on either side of the parents. Epilepsy usually doesn't show up until the dog is around 3 years old, so it's hard to keep out of the breeding pool.

~Considering all my experience in the show world, I have to say that adopting a dog who needs a forever home is the most rewarding thing you can do. Right now, I have two elderly Chihuahuas that I got from a pure breed rescue. One is deaf, and both are nearly blind. They are the biggest lovers, and my constant companions.

Thanks!!

~No problem, feel free to ask as many questions as you want!
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Moonlight









  


Post  Mon, Nov 14 2016, 10:24 pm
Wow fanatic frumie I am so impressed! I would.LOVE a dog but my DH refuses to have one in the house.
My kids are. the only ones in their classes to have a pet - hamster. Working on a cat....
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Seashells









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 12:07 am
I have a dog before I got married and she's still alive in Denmark. I miss her!!!
Dh says it's in Gamara we can't get a dog. Sad
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 12:24 am
Seashells wrote:
I have a dog before I got married and she's still alive in Denmark. I miss her!!!
Dh says it's in Gamara we can't get a dog. Sad


If you are nervous to be alone in the house while DH is gone, it is certainly permitted to have a dog to make you feel protected! My DH is Lubavitch, and he's never had a pet in his life. He's not crazy about the idea,but he knows how much it means to me, so he's totally fine with it. A dog will bark if someone they don't know comes in, and that is valuable. My tiny Chihuahuas scared off a burglar once!

The Rebbe was against having treif animals around, but if they are "working", meaning that they serve an actual purpose, then it's a different story. It's like you don't get a cat davka just to have one, but if there are mice in your building, then cats are permitted. Whether the cat actually catches any of the mice makes no difference.
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chani8









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:34 am
I have two dogs. A dachshund-pinscher mix and a canaani-australian mix. Smile

I think it's best to get a dog that is past the puppy stage so one is more able to observe and determine their temperament.

I would *never* buy a pure breed. It should be against the law to make pure breeds, imo.

My family has rescued many pups, fostered them and found homes for them. Puppies are hard! I know they are so cute, but they nip and teeth and chew on children.

Children make terrible dog trainers. The father of the home has to be in charge of the dogs if you want a well behaved dog.

People are afraid of dogs.

The biggest problem with dogs is their barking.

And for the tidy housekeeper, their shedding. Also, some family members can be allergic to dogs, even those that dont shed.

Dogs have to go outside to go potty, and then they come back in...and they dont keep their feet clean.

They chew on furniture and children's toys, and get into any food that is left out, and get into the garbage.

We use a crate for them at night. Dogs *love* their crate. It's like a den for them and very much helps to calm them.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:42 am
Chani, I would love to see a pic of your Aussie mix dog!

We can agree to disagree about pure breeds. I do think we can agree that puppy mills are horrific and inexcusable, and that all ethical breeders will look for genetic stock that is far removed from the line they are breeding into. I don't believe in line breeding, and I am most definitely against merle/merle crosses, when one out of 4 puppies will be blind and deaf, needing to be culled. People who want that fancy merle color can just take their chances with a tricolor cross, and roll the dice.

\sorry, I got ranty there for a bit. We're both pretty passionate people, and in the end we both want what is best for our furry friends.
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chani8









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:52 am
I am opinionated, FF, but believe everyone is entitled to their opinions (even if they're wrong, in my opinion, lol). eta - not that you're wrong!

In my opinion, the best pet for children has hands down been kittens. 2nd to that is a parakeet. And only then, dogs.

Unless one gets a really really good dog. I'd go with an older dog that is good with kids. But still, they bark. My husband hates the barking. I dont mind it. My teens bark, too. lol

It may be an idea to babysit someone else's puppy/dog to determine if a dog is suitable for your family. You can possibly ask the local Shelter for such an opportunity.
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yaelchai









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 4:57 am
We have a miniature poodle. We live in Israel on the edge of a Hareidi neighborhood. Our daughters go to Hareidi schools. We checked with our rav and he said unless the dog is a "mean dog" there is no problem. On the other hand, the principal of their school says we are not allowed to bring the dog into the heart of the neighborhood.

Our little dog has done a lot of kiruv work by helping many Hareidi kids overcome their fear of dogs!
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perquacky









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 1:57 pm
We have a beagle. We rescued Scout from a shelter. And since she cost us practically nothing ($75 for vaccinations), we paid someone to train her. Truth is, it takes time, something we really don't have.
But . . .
We waited until our kids were old enough to walk the dog. I told dh I wouldn't do it, especially in the morning before I have to leave for work (I leave before 7:00). He can't in the mornings either. So our kids do it before school, after school, and at night. But they're teenagers. I would not have gotten a dog when they were younger. Having a dog is like having another child. I didn't want any more children, and I wouldn't have gotten a dog if I had to be the primary caregiver. I walk her occasionally, feed her, and take her to the vet, but that's it. If I don't have the time, someone else does it for me.
Just know what you're getting in to before you adopt or buy. (And for the record, I would never buy. There are so many sweet dogs at shelters whose lives are pretty much on the line.)
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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 5:30 pm
One thing you can do is offer to dog sit for a friend or neighbor to see if owning a dog is for you before making the comittment. There are hypoallergenic dogs that don't shed at all. You might end up having more neighbors over on Shabbat because children want to come play with the dog. There might be others that are afraid, but most are fine if you agree to put the dog in a separate room or another side of the house while they are over. In terms of muktza, there are some rules, however, for the dog's owner mostly everything (feeding, walking) is ok.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 5:37 pm
yaelchai wrote:
We have a miniature poodle. We live in Israel on the edge of a Hareidi neighborhood. Our daughters go to Hareidi schools. We checked with our rav and he said unless the dog is a "mean dog" there is no problem. On the other hand, the principal of their school says we are not allowed to bring the dog into the heart of the neighborhood.

Our little dog has done a lot of kiruv work by helping many Hareidi kids overcome their fear of dogs!


I've had quite a few families send their kids over to my house to get to know my dogs, because they know me and know that my dogs are safe and gentle. They want me to train their kids how to behave around dogs, and to get over their fears. I really loved doing that!

Some day I hope to speak Hebrew well enough to offer my services to schools, where I can give a presentation and teach kids about how to safely pass dogs on the street. They may never become dog lovers, and that's OK. I just hate the idea of kids living in fear all the time.

Running and screaming are the two WORST things you can do, and are the most likely to get a dog excited enough to bit you. At best, the dog will think it's a game, and at worst, the dog might mistake a child for prey. Sad We teach out kids about stranger danger, but no one teaches them how to deal with a strange dog. Unless you live on Mars, at some point in your life, everyone has to meet a dog on the street.
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sequoia









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 5:37 pm
Seashells wrote:
I have a dog before I got married and she's still alive in Denmark. I miss her!!!
Dh says it's in Gamara we can't get a dog. Sad


Ask him to show you inside.
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amother




Denim


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 7:04 pm
Seashells wrote:
I have a dog before I got married and she's still alive in Denmark. I miss her!!!
Dh says it's in Gamara we can't get a dog. Sad


Curious what the exact wording in the Gemara is? I've never heard of this.
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thunderstorm









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 7:15 pm
amother wrote:
Curious what the exact wording in the Gemara is? I've never heard of this.
.
My DH just told me that it says it's assur to have a "Kelev ra" a BAD dog. I
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 7:23 pm
Bizzydizzymommy wrote:
.
My DH just told me that it says it's assur to have a "Kelev ra" a BAD dog. I


This is true. Who would WANT a bad dog? I took in a dog that a friend of mine's daughter was dumping, because he didn't fit into her busy schedule. The dog was completely untrained, and I tried for 6 months to get him in shape. One day he bit DD hard enough to draw blood, and I called my friend to come pick him up that very minute. Al pi halacha, you cannot keep a vicious dog. Thugs who keep pit bulls who are trained to fight also fall into this category.

Your neighbor's cocker spaniel who is just really happy to see you, does NOT qualify as a "bad dog", no matter how much you don't like dogs.
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Seashells









  


Post  Tue, Nov 15 2016, 8:00 pm
sequoia wrote:
Ask him to show you inside.


amother wrote:
Curious what the exact wording in the Gemara is? I've never heard of this.


I will ask him when he come home but he said all dogs are kelev ra, only a farm dog to do work with the cows or some thing like that are allowed by Gemara. But my family did not live on a farm in my home country and we have a dog there. And my father knows Gemara very much but he said it's ok. So???? I don't know.
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amother




Slateblue


Post  Wed, Nov 16 2016, 8:23 am
Wow thanks eveyone for your replies. Sso my DH had a do growing up, and we've read up on puppy training a lot. I've also had various pets growing up although not a dog. We chose to adopt a puppy from a breeder since we are looking for a non shedding dog due to allergies within the family. We prefer a puppy so that we can train it as we would like it to be trained. For example we plan to train the dog to go to the bathroom in one spot in the yard, hopefully on command so that we won't have to walk it multiple times a day. While we do intend to take it out and play with it outdoors and walk it at times I don't want to have to take a dog on a walk in a blizzard hoping that it goes to the bathroom soon.
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