What is a fair punishment for this boy?

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 9:03 pm

A 15 year old boy in my sons 10th grade class is a potty mouth. This is a well known mainstream yeshiva. The boy uses the F word many times everyday. The Hanhala was made aware of this and called the boy in for a meeting. I don't know the details of the meeting but I would imagine the boy was warned. The boy has not stopped talking about sx, what type of body he likes on a woman and of course the endless cursing. This happens every single day. What is realistic for me to expect from the yeshiva? I would like them to expel the boy. Is that unfair?

das

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 9:16 pm

In the Midrash on Psalms 118 it states that Bruriah taught her husband, Rabbi Meir, to pray for the repentance of the wicked, rather than for their destruction. According to the story, she once found Rabbi Meir praying that an annoying neighbor would die. Appalled by this, she responded to him by explaining the verse "Let the sinners be consumed from the earth, and the wicked shall be no more" (Psalms 104:35), that the verse actually states: "Let sin be consumed from the earth," adding that "the wicked shall be no more" because they have repented.

why not hope he's helped instead of expelled?

yksraya

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 9:17 pm

Let them deal with it. Not realistic of you to expect anything from them. Of course if they were not aware and you have a concern you can call them to let them know. But what should be done is none of your business.

seeker

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 9:32 pm

I would prefer the word "intervention" to "punishment." I don't think punishment is the kind of thing that would help this situation, but it does need help. Like I don't know about "expel" but I would want him to be told that it's his choice to remain in the yeshiva and the yeshiva is happy to have him, but as long as he is choosing to stay within their walls he has to keep it appropriate. And that if he does not feel able to do that, they would be happy to help him find a suitable alternative and/or support him in his future success.

I'm not sure if yeshivas do that.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:11 pm

To be very honest a boy talking like that its very not appropriate! But getting a boy kicked out of yeshiva is playing with fire! When people cause other kids to get kicked out of yeshiva they always pay a price! You never know what pain the parents had to get him in just to stay off the streets! Its not worth it! I can tell you story after story that people had tzaros and tzaros from these things. Stay away! The best is to tell your son to stay away from him!

tichellady

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:15 pm

pretend this boy is your son. how would you want the yeshiva to handle him?

I wouldn't be surprised if he had some issues either at home or he was sxually abused etc. rather than assume he is "bad" the school should make sure everything is ok and he is being cared for appropriately before dealing with punishments

anonymrs

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:21 pm

I agree with what all pp are saying. But the fact is that this one child is being a very big disadvantage (to put it nicely) to 25? 30? Maybe more? boys in the class and that is very unfair that they all have to suffer because of this boy. Yes, this boy is probably in pain and suffering and while I genuinely acknowledge his pain and empathize with him and his family, he needs a lot of help and it isn't fair for the rest of the boys to have to suffer.

I like what seeker said. Maybe while he's getting help, the yeshiva can offer him to stay so long as he is able to filter his mouth while he's in yeshiva.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:39 pm

Op....I agree with those suggesting that it's a terrible to have a boy kicked out of a yeshiva. I also agree that if it were my son I would have to advocate and plead to have him remain in yeshiva. However the fact remains that this kid has brought dirty magazines to yeshiva, gave my son a detailed description explaining how men can have sx with each other, constantly talked about how he likes girls with big behinds, and of course uses the F word all day. Like I said earlier, this is a mainstream black hat in town yeshiva that EVERYBODY has heard of. At what point is it fair to say that he is causing damage to the other boys and shouldn't remain in yeshiva?

yksraya

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:47 pm

I heard a story: a rosh yeshiva came to the satmar rabbi (r'yoel ztl) and asked if he may send home 2 bachurim that are a bad influence to the other bachurim. The rabbi answered "you can send home bachurim, BUT, send home all the good bachurim, and the 2 struggling bachurim you should keep!!!! It's a major achrayos to send away at risk bachurim, the good ones can find other places, but what will happen to those 2???? "

notshanarishona

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:48 pm

Generally a regular mainstream yeshiva would have long kicked out a boy for such behavior.. I would assume the hanhala has some type of reasoning for keeping him in, wether it's right or wrong depends on the situation. As far as your part, I would say encourage your son not to talk to him/ignore such talk. There is not much more you can do. And ask the Rebbi to try to pay more attention which you did already.

debsey

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:53 pm

Punishment is kind of besides the point. As a parent, I would want to know what the yeshiva's plan is - will someone say something to the boys? How will they handle future violations of yeshiva's rules? How will they ensure that the situation won't escalate? Are they providing the boy with proper therapy, management, contingencies, etc.? It's not about "punishment" it's about - will this yeshiva provide a safe environment for all the children?

If there aren't satisfactory answers to those questions, then the yeshiva needs to ask itself "are we serving this boy properly here, or does he belong in a specialized environment?"

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:56 pm

yksraya wrote:

I think your heart is in the right place but you're not being practical. Sure it's an unbelievable achrayis to kick out a boy. But sometimes it's an even bigger achrayis to keep a boy who is clearly corrupting good boys. If a child would bring his phone to school and show other boys (suppose your son) [filth] on it. After being warned, does it again. Would you really say, well what will happen to this boy if he's thrown out? I'll just have to accept that my son will see and hear the most explicit filth all year. I doubt it.

33055

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 10:59 pm

You can talk to admin and see they are taking steps to remedy the situation; although, they should not give you details. The school may already be working on rewards, or threats, or some other behavior modification. If nothing is working, it may be time for this boy to transfer for the sake of the boy as much as for the sake of your son.

My understanding is the main school equipped to handle this type of behavior is in Danbury, and they don't accept boys until they are in the tenth grade. Keeping this boy with educators who aren't knowledgeable in handing this correctly could result of an alienation of frumkite.

What happened in the ninth grade? Was the boy only first admitted in the tenth grade? Was he a problem last year

yksraya

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 11:06 pm

amother wrote:

Are you in denial? If it's not gonna be this boy it can be another boy, whether in yeshiva, camp, shul or anywhere. As much as we want to protect our kids, all we can really do is daven that they have good friendships and aren't having a bad influence.

In every generation there were the good ones and the troubled ones. There were those who got badly influenced by the troubled ones, and there were those troubled ones that came under good influence by a friend who really cared. Nothing much to do in such case. Let the hanhala do as they see fit, or take your son elsewhere.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 11:20 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Have you talked to this boys parents?

No. I know his mom a little but I didn't contact her for 2 reasons. First of all I think she will just be in denial and suggest I'm exaggerating and it's really not so bad, and secondly if this boy does get kicked out of yeshiva I don't won't his mom to figure I was the person who told on him.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 11:23 pm

yksraya wrote:

Are you in denial? If it's not gonna be ths boy it can be another boy, whether in yeshiva, camp, shul or anywhere. As much as we want to protect our kids, all we can really do is daven that they have good friendships and aren't having a bad influence.

In every generation there were the good ones and the troubled ones. There were those who got badly influenced by the troubled ones, and there were those troubled ones that came under good influence by a friend who really cared. Nothing much to do in such case. Let the hanhala do as they see fit, or take your son elsewhere.

[I]

Really??? you honestly believe that bringing [filth] to school and talking about woman in the most degrading way imaginable is something that inevitably happens in yeshiva high schools and should therefore be accepted? I don't think we live in the same universe.

yksraya

Tue, Dec 13 2016, 11:24 pm

amother wrote:

You just answered my question...