Charitable organization wants to run lives

amother

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 2:14 am

A while ago my husband was approached about a new organization starting to help people who are not making ends meet. They might help with shut-off notices, household repairs, etc.... Since we fall into that category, we agreed to meet for an initail consultation. This lead to another meeting with a professional where we had to present our entire budget - income and expenses. He helped us estimate expenses in certain categories that we were not sure of and was very respectful whenever we tried to explain why certain things seemed to be on the high end.
Then the call came. The professional made some suggestions and the organization was willing to help if we made some changes such as start keeping track of expenses more closely (o.k.), cut our food expenses shock

, and switch some of our kids to a different school for tuition reasons shock

.
We personally know some of those involved and have seen that they do not send their children to the school that would seem to fit their lifestyle. Obviously, they have made a personal choice for whatever reasons they have but it seems that they now want to impose their philosophy on us if we want their help.
I told my husband - let's just forget the whole thing. Just because Hashem has given us the nissayon of aniyus (poverty) doesn't mean we are stupid and don't have to right to make decisions in our own life.
There are others out there who are willing to help without dictating how people should live their lives.
Am I wrong?

hila

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 2:39 am

Are you sure they are pushing their own philosphy on you, or are they making you face facts. That you cannot afford to send your kids to the most expensive school and eat as well ?

There are organisations here (paamonim) who give similar free advice on how to make ends meet, but I never heard of them pushing thir views on people.

If the only issue they are making demands on you like that is tuition - and you really wantyour kids in a certain school - maybe try and get reduced tuition instead of changing schools.

I am assuming you do want to make ends meet. There is a difference between poverty and debt. At least take their advice in budgeting and saving in other areas. Make them realise that schools is yor own "red line" .

And just as some people say " I cant afford Harvard" and settle on Boston University (lehavdil) , if you want to eat, you may have to do the same .

Since you are not managing now, and you need help from somewhere - maybe this is the lifeline Hashem is sending you.

Wishing you lots of osher veosher and a ktiva bechatima tova

chavamom

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 2:49 am

I think that the bottom line is you have to make sure that whomever you turn to for help shares the same philosophic background. A friend of mine recently found herself temporarily unemployed during a high-risk multiple pregnancy - she brings in about 50% of their income and wasn't eligible for short-term disability until she had been unable to work for "x" of weeks. When they turned to the JCFS for help, they had to go for mandatory financial counseling. They were told that they would be refused help unless they cut their food bill (kosher food is *very* expensive here and this is a quite frugal family already) and moved to a more inexpensive (read "not Orthodox") neighborhood and put the kids in public schools. The funniest part is that the woman counseling them said "how would I justify this to my donors if I didn't insist you do this?" and the friend said "HELLO! We ARE your donors! We have given money to you consistently and now we are turning to you for TEMPORARY help while I'm on bedrest and not able to work. Do you think now is really the time to move?!?!?!" Needless to say, they looked for help elsewhere.

greenfire

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 5:56 am

yup sounds controlling and unrealistic for both OP and chavamoms friend ... so much for help - eh? so since it is Hashem that provides ... continue your efforts on histadlus and keep the faith ... sometimes there are a few changes to make but not at the expense of losing something that to us is a basic ... like chinuch ... house ... food ... or put our kids at risk shock

amother

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 7:15 am

I'm posting anonymously, because I'm afraid what I'm about to say will sound offensive, even though I don't mean it to be so.
As a discalimer, I don't know why they've made this recommendation to you about the schools; whether it's really for economic reasons, or because they're trying to push an agenda. More about that later.
You state:

Quote:

Just because Hashem has given us the nissayon of aniyus (poverty) doesn't mean we are stupid and don't have to right to make decisions in our own life.

I am sure you are not stupid. But it's like a 500 pound person saying, just because I have this nisayon, doesn't mean I am stupid. It's true. Yet for some reason, she is making poor choices that has led her to this crisis. I don't know why you are in debt. Maybe there have been unemployment issues, health issues, etc, but for whatever reason, you need help getting out, and the only way to get out (short of winning the lottery-halevai), is to make different choices about how to get money in, and how to manage money going out.
Perhaps if you explain to the advisor how important this school is to your family, he could advise you to cut down in other areas to make it work. This could mean a huge sacrifise like eating meat only on Shabbos, buying used clothes, cutting your own hair etc. Or maybe he's already cut everything out that's humanly possible, and there's still just too much month left at the end of the money.
Basically, try to listen to him with an open mind. You're not stupid. You're probably in this situation due to a combination of bad luck and bad choices. And you're an adult who will ultimately make your own decisions. Just keep in mind, that if you insist on paying for the higher tuition school, you may not get out of your debt, or it may take much longer. It's YOUR choice, but it's also YOUR consequence.

amother

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 9:45 am

Quote:

This could mean a huge sacrifise like eating meat only on Shabbos, buying used clothes, cutting your own hair etc. You're probably in this situation due to a combination of bad luck and bad choices.

OP here. I believe we are already living a frugal lifestyle. We do buy used clothes and furniture ($5 ea. for dining room chairs), do our own haircuts, live in a small house (for our family size) -about the smallest they come around here, do our own painting, bush trimming, housecleaning (except for maybe a few times a year).
I am open to other suggestions. That's why we met with these people. I know there are areas where we could do better like better phone plan, etc.... And we did already cut out a large part of our food budget by starting to bake our own bread and challa.
But my husband is in chinuch and we have KA"H a large family. Our school choice has to do with the type of Chassidim we are so that is very important to us.
I don't believe in bad luck but I do believe in Hashgocha Protis. We put in our hishtadlus but I think Hashem wants us on the receiving end right now. There's a reason He didn't make everyone have equal parnasa, that's His cheshbon. I hope I will one day be on the giving end and use this experience positively.

amother

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 9:57 am

Quote:

Our school choice has to do with the type of Chassidim we are so that is very important to us.

So that's fine. That's YOUR CHOICE. But then again, you have to own the consequences.
Having reread the original post, I think I may have missed something. Is the issue that they will only give you money if you make the changes they ask for? If so, they have the right to ask for whatever they want (like CM described)-they have to answer to their donors also. But then you have the right to either accept the money with their conditions, or reject the money if you don't want to adhere to them. You can try to find an organisation that will give you money unconditionally, that targets students of your school, or whatever.
I wish you hatzlocho, and echo your thoughts that one day you should be on the giving end.

hadasa

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 10:31 am

Having seen several cases where people gave thousnads of $$ to pay back someone's debts, only to have the recipient fall back into debt a short time later, I cannot blame them for requiring certain lifestyle changes. OTOH, if you want a certain Chinuch for your children and this is something you feel you cannot compromise on, maybe speak to them and explain that this is not a luxury, but a necessity for you. maybe they'll help you figure out a way to work it into your budget. Unless, of course, they are interested in imposing a different derech on you, in which case, maybe you really need to look for someone else.

chocolate moose

Sun, Sep 09 2007, 11:19 am

A religious lifestyle means sometimes having no choice! And, conversly, it might means sometimes doing without.

Just think of non Jews - free public school, any groceries they want, etc. Jews don't have that choice!

However, there are some choices in our lifestyle - what we eat or don't eat during the week, if we chose to run the heat or AC albiet frugally, if we wash our own dishes as compared to buying paper plates, etc.

You can only do so much to work within the "system".

amother

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 10:22 pm

Quote:

Piper your post is offensive, please dont tell op to become a vegan.......

I don't think Piper's comment was offensive, it was just an idea that she had.

Listen, OP is a woman who according to herself is living in poverty. They have a lot of kids, they want to go to a certain school and they want tzedaka.

Maybe it's not just ideas about tzedaka that she needs...what about ideas about parnossa?

amother

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 11:09 pm

op here. First of all, I learned that Hashem could have made the world with everyone living equally but didn't because He wants the haves to help the have nots. It is not an easy position to be on the receiving end but it is wrong to degrade people and look down at them because of something Hashem decided on Rosh Hashana.
We do receive government assistance. In terms of food stamps they allow about $2.50/day/person.
A [gentile] would probably tell us that we just can't afford to send our kids to private schools so send them to public school and we just can't afford to keep kosher anymore so don't. And how about - You just can't afford to have more than 2 kids so don't.
Many Jews give "suggestion" along the same lines - contrary to our hashkofos.
Certain things are just not negotiable. Hashem runs the world, not us. We put in our Hishtadlus (you probably wouldn't believe both of our work schedules) and Hashem is of course the third partner in our marriage. We try to do the Ratzon HaElyon.
I would appreciate ideas for parnoso. And thanks to all those who gave chizuk.

southernbubby

Thu, Sep 20 2007, 12:35 pm

A vegan doesn't eat eggs or fish either. A vegetarian is someone who only avoids meat. It is entirely possible to be healthy without meat. I know frum families who are vegetarian and are healthier than meat eaters. I realize that piper was only trying to help and give a suggestion, but usually people who go to organizations for help want to live the average frum lifestyle and need help doing so.