Do you update your minhagim based on practicality?

water_bear88

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:42 pm

etky wrote:

I can't guarantee it. You have to read the ingredients carefully. Generally the products that I'm referring to are labelled כשר לפסח - לאוכלי לפתית . Sometimes a product will also state that it contains lecithin from soy during the year and from canola for Pesach.

That does make sense, though- I've been confused in the past about what plant it was from when some had labels like the bolded in your post.

I should just call a company if there's something I'd want to use. Of everything, it's hardest to go a whole week without decent chocolate!

On the matter of discomfort, I don't know why I got comfortable so quickly with using canola. I guess it's that my family was never particularly machmir on Pesach- aside from making it feel like a real YT, which generally meant real dishes (at a minimum, real silverware) and good, varied food. I'll miss our kitniyot "shmini shel Pesach" of the last two years! Maybe we'll get some Sefardi-KLP cookies for Shabbat Hagadol.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 3:15 pm

Re mey kitniyot- when living in Israel I was specific told by an ex-Australian now in israel kollel rabbi that kitnyot derivatives are absolutely mutar to me as an Australian going back several generations. He said almost every pesach product available in Australia until very recently contained kitniyot derivatives, that is now our minhag.

heidi

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:19 pm

etky wrote:

So, we've been mulling this for a number of years. We do not eat kitniyot or consume "mey kitniyot" like soy and sunflower oils. We use olive oil and the nut oil which is 5 times the price of canola oil. Between baking, salad dressings and cooking, I go through several bottles of nut oil each chag. Many MO ashkenazi poskim in Israel hold that canola is not kitniyot and thus its oil is permitted if labeled as KLP with a Sefardi hechsher. The only reason we still refrain from using the canola oil is that I want anyone that I invite for a meal to feel comfortable eating in my home. Personally, we have no problem eating the food at friends' homes who cook with canola oil but not everyone feels that way. I also have no problem buying ready to eat products like chocolate, ice cream and wafers that state that they contain 'liftit' -meaning lecithin derived from canola.
I don't know why I still have such reluctance about making the switch. It's not as if I'm jetissoning an age-old minhag. After all, my grandparents in the US cooked with peanut oil and before that, in the shtetl, they probably just used shmaltz. Certainly no one knew from hazelnut and walnut oil back then.

Rav Melamed from the Bet El yeshiva holds this way. I don't think anyone would call him Modern Orthodox.
I still can't do it.
I guess I'm too tied to my minhagim.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:13 am

amother wrote:

Both my DF and DFIL hold that you need to kasher a pesach'dig utensil that fell on the floor. Rolling Eyes

So you can do what my mother and my MIL both do. When it falls on the floor in front of DF/DFIL, it gets taken into the kitchen, washed off and replaced in the utensil box. And nobody is any the wiser. If they don't see it, it didn't happen.

IOW, Respect his minhag to his face but do what you need to do...

I told my DH about this and he could find no Halachic basis for such a need. DH is generally very respectful of minhagim but he called this shtus.

Washing it off if it fell on the floor is something we do all year round - for cleanliness, not kashrus, and certainly nothing to do with chometz.

slinky

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:25 am

Chayalle wrote:

I heard it's done because its very likely there is chometz on the floor since people walk outside and then walk in their house with their shoes on.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:33 am

Chayalle wrote:

I object to this.

Because DH found no halachic basis gives him the right to call it shtus? Did he research it in the places where this chumra is found to know what it's based on? This is very much normal in my community. (either it must be kashered or you don't use it for a whole year)

And of course it has to do with chometz. We only put down pesach'dig utensils on pesach'dig surfaces, whether kashered or lined. The floor is neither. With people walking on the floor constantly and who knows what on the soles of their shoes, with matza crumbs on the floor becoming gebrokted, the floor is a downright hotbed of shailos for something that will go directly in your mouth.

SixOfWands

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:45 am

amother wrote:

Do you have any halachic source that holds that (1) matzo that has fallen on the floor becomes chametz; (2) matzo that is wet becomes chametz; (3) dust or dirt on the floor, that is not visible particles, is chametz.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:49 am

slinky wrote:

I heard it's done because its very likely there is chometz on the floor since people walk outside and then walk in their house with their shoes on.

In order for kashering to be required, it would have to come into contact with HOT chometz.

And yes, BTW - DH has thoroughly learned thru these sugyos.

ETA: In order for it to become gebrokt, it would also need to touch wet matza for 18 minutes. So washing it off well would remove that problem.

Last edited by Chayalle on Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total

Iymnok

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:49 am

Halachicly, if a piece of bread were to touch your spoon on pesach, you can use it to eat your soup after checking that no chometz remains in it.
It is cold and dry.
What type of floors do you have? Dirt or sand? With lenolium, wood, tiled, etc. flooring this type of chumra should stay in the world of rebbishe chumros.

zohar

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:57 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I'm going to answer you not in order. 2. Are you arguing with the chumra of generous which is widely practiced very stringently? No one argues that it is basic halacha which is why there is a minhag to eat gebroks on achron shel pesach. 3. On pesach there is no concept of bagel b'shishim. Only before. So if a crumb of chometz gets on your food, it becomes chometz. That partially answers 1. as well since people are worried that there may be chometz on the floor so if matza falls on it, it would become chometz. Also we only use kosher for pesach dishes and kasher/cover all surfaces that are used for food prep and eating. I don't think the floor can be kasher.

princessleah

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:59 am

Iymnok wrote:

Agree. Dirt =/= Hametz

I assume you wash your floors before pesach starts. The ammonia or pine sol you use would render any food stuck on the floor inedible.
If someone tracked in a piece of bread on his shoe that landed on your floor, you would probably see it if your spoon fell on it. If it's too microscopic to see with the naked eye, it is not making your spoon hametz. I'm guessing you would wash it off anyway with soap if it fell on the floor.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 9:59 am

Hellooooooooo, people! This has zero to do with halacha! Why are you obsessing over halachic sources for this? There is none because it's chumra based on chumra.

I'm finding it ironic that I, who don't abide to this practice for the sake of sanity, am defending it. Please respect other people's chumros!!!

water_bear88

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:04 am

Batel b'shishim doesn't work for chametz on Pesach, but as Lymnok mentioned, cold and dry can not generally treif up cold and dry. Feel free to keep your Pesach chumros if they work for you! But please don't look down on your DIL or SIL if her sanity can't handle them.

Iymnok

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:05 am

We do not cover surfaces that will not come in contact with food. That includes kitchen shelves, drawers and the fridge. We cover anything that will come in contact with food, spills or steam.
I make dh humor me in cleaning certain dirts. To get him to understand it's importance, I call it kavod Yom Tov.
I am very happy that he takes his learning and understanding of Halacha so seriously, but growing up we had so much fun standing on the kitchen countertops to wash out the top cabinets.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:07 am

amother wrote:

I've seen people drive themselves and their family crazy for some of these Chumros. The fact that a poster admitted that they wash it off if the men didn't see, proves this point. With no Halachic basis for it, it makes no sense to hold on to.

slinky

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:10 am

Chayalle wrote:

I think you meant to respond to the post after mine

zohar

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:12 am

Chayalle wrote:

But if any chometz gets on your food on pesach, hot or cold, even a crumb, it would become chometz. No one is arguing that this is not a chumra. But it is a logical chumra.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:16 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm the poster who said that! I'm explaining why the men hold like that, but because it drives their family crazy their family doesn't keep it. Instead of arguing over it (my mother did it like this all the years why can't you...), the women keep the peace by pretending to keep this chumra but knowing that it isn't a very important one, don't abide by it.

zohar

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:20 am

Chayalle wrote:

That's a different question. You seem to be demeaning the entire practice, not questioning if under some circumstances, it would be better to become more lenient. That actually is probably going back to the original question if the op. I would only abandon a minhag or chumra practiced by my family if it was affecting shalom bayis (even among extended family) or under extenuating circumstances such as someone being ill and not having the time or strength to make things from scratch.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:21 am

zohar wrote:

But if any chometz gets on your food on pesach, hot or cold, even a crumb, it would become chometz. No one is arguing that this is not a chumra. But it is a logical chumra.

But if a piece of cold chometz touches your spoon, your spoon doesn't become chometz. You can wash it off well and use it.

So if a spoon falls on the floor, and you are afraid the spoon could've touched cold chometz, (very unlikely, you cleaned for Pesach, right? but what if?) there's no need to kasher. You can just wash the spoon.