Help! My 11 year old son is lying and stealing

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 3:46 am

What else can I say? He's the youngest. He's smart, creative, probably ADHD but not really diagnosed and charming.
He's also the biggest liar I've ever met. He steals at home. We can't trust him for a minute. This week his older brother passed a pizza store and saw him inside eating pizza. When my husband confronted him about it (and asked him where he got money for pizza) he vehemently denied it and called his older brother a liar (which he's not). He even faced his older brother and blatantly called him a liar. Eventually, my husband said "Ok, we'll all go to the pizza store and find out who is lying by asking the owner". That's when he broke down and admitted that he had been there. But if you would have seen him crying and denying it you would have thought that maybe he was telling the truth and was wrongly accused.
We have never had children who really steal and are at a complete loss.
Anyone here have experience?

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 4:00 am

My own experience embarrassed

I grew out of it at around age 16, when I had enough self control.
I was ADD and pretty much just took what I wanted. I remember hating every time I had to lie.
My advice? Make some sort of "chart" for him for something else with a monetary prize. Enough for him to either buy himself something nice every week or save up. (not "work". if he would've wanted to work he probably would''ve by now.
Or, try teaching him self control...
But make sure he knows that you love him no matter what. Even if he steals. Even if you can never help him and he will always steal. Only if he's sure about that will he stop lying, and once he admits it you can get him help, or he will try to help himself.
If he's not 100% sure that your love is stronger than all, he will continue to deny it, and feel much worse with himself.

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 5:33 am

ADHD kids have a tendency to think in their mind that things are theirs.
There can also be another thing, it could be the atmosphere at home maybe too controlling?!? What type of family controls every move that an 11 year old does? And also how do you threaten a child like that? To embarrass him? Rather just pay for it behind his back in a more respectful manner. The fact that he is lying and the fact that he even admits it, it almost sounds like an obsession he can not control. Again I wouldn't say that the home is a stressful place and that he is a pathological liar. But it definitely needs professional help. It also can be a friend instigating the problem. Try and be soft with him. Give him allowance money to spend.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 5:41 am

So I have no advice for you but your situation reminded me of a story that I heard from the era of the Shoah. Apparently there was a boy who had a huge yetzer hara to steal. His parents were very upset. They went to a Rav who told them as they yetzer was so strong it would one day be used for good. Anyway apparently at some point during the Shoah the boy was in a situation where in a split second he had an opportunity to steal many German passports and he took the opportunity and stole the passports and saved many lives. I may have some of the details not quite right but that's the basic story. Has anyone else heard it?

Hope that gives you some chizzuk at least

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 5:46 am

amother wrote:

My home has one of the most relaxed atmospheres I have ever seen. Noone controls anyone. My teenage son just so happened to ride by the pizza shop at 6 pm when my 11 year old should have been just getting home from cheder. He saw him very clearly. When asked about it the 11 year old DENIED BEING THERE and called his brother a liar.

WitchKitty

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 6:00 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

Chaim Walder I think. If so, it's not a true story.

MitzadSheini

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 6:16 am

fsr wrote:

Chaim Walder I think. If so, it's not a true story.

Oh really? That's a little disappointing. But only a little. Kind of makes it like kivayachol a modern day midrash, as in the message still remains even if the story is not 100% to be believed (that's what Rambam says about midrashim right?). Anyway op, it sounds like a terribly big challenge and I don't envy you, hope things improve really really soon.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:49 am

Have you asked him why he likes going to the pizza place? Does he enjoy pizza? Does he like hanging out with people there? Find out what he is getting from those type of illicit excursions. It's very important to be non-judgemental when you have these conversations.

Don't ask him about his lying. Don't offer him opportunities for him to lie to you. Say things like "I know you were at the pizza shop today. Can you explain what you were doing there?"

Don't look to specifically punish him. That doesn't get to the root of the issue.

I also recommend reading "Raising Human Beings"

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:49 am

amother wrote:

Then why would he stop?

The target at the moment is not that he should stop but that he should feel safe and accepted even after eating out pr anythibg else.
And no one should ask him if he was there. So he was in pizza shop what's the big deal? Try not to bring him to a position where he has to lie. If he will feel safe he will report by himself.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:56 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Thanks for the reading recommendation.

He doesn't specifically like the pizza shop. He steals money to buy sweets and other things. Whatever he sees he wants. I'll tell you what he got out of going to the pizza store - PIZZA!!! And don't think we never buy a pie either. We aren't looking to punish. We are looking to be able to believe him though. Right now, he's like the boy who cried wolf. We can no longer believe anything he says because he is such a convincing liar. And believe me, we have gone the root of not labeling him a liar and a thief. We tried the "seeing only the good in him" method. Nothing worked.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 7:59 am

amother wrote:

I disagree. The target is for him to stop lying and stealing. He feels very safe because he never got a major punishment. What child feels safe "reporting" that he stole money and bought pizza without his parents' permission? What's the big deal? The big deal is that this is the umpteenth time that he stole and each time he fesses up and says he'll never do it again. What would you do if your child were consistently lying and stealing? The lying is what really gets me. He denied it so strongly that we almost believed that his brother was lying about seeing him there.
I promise you, there is no lack of love here. We hug alot and have lots of love. But he still lies.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:02 am

amother wrote:

Does he have opportunities to earn money to buy these rewards? Are you against him going to the pizza store himself or are you against the lying? Or both? (both are ok)

(No judgement in any of my questions, I promise)

Is he just stealing from you? Is he stealing from his siblings? Teachers? Friends?

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:10 am

amother wrote:

We are looking to be able to believe him though. Right now, he's like the boy who cried wolf. We can no longer believe anything he says because he is such a convincing liar. And believe me, we have gone the root of not labeling him a liar and a thief. We tried the "seeing only the good in him" method. Nothing worked.

I remember my brother once buying something with the change from grocery and telling my parents he lost the money.
Nu nu did he get for that "lie".
Yes There was a very relaxed 'controled' atmosphere in the house. My brother grew up to be a successfull husband and parent thanks to the fact that he moved overseas after his wedding away from this relaxed place where he wasn't believed or accepted.
Thanks to his wife who had the capacity to see the good in him he got another chance in life.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:26 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I'm against the lying. If he would ask me for pizza there is a possibility I would allow it. What we have been very makpid on lately is limiting his sugar intake because sugar makes him crazy. Of course he really craves it (and he's not an overeater. He just loves candy and soda, but they don't love him).

I have no way of knowing if he's stealing from friends. I know that he is a real leader. Very charismatic.

His principal complains that he's got a very smug attitude, which is very possible. I don't think he's stealing in cheder. But he is a bit of a ringleader/trouble maker, if you know what I mean. It's not a simple situation. He's not a goody two shoes. I won't say that I spend tons of time with him because he comes home at 6 every day, but I think the home atmosphere is really a good one. He's the first child that is bringing out a sternness in my husband that was never necessary in the past. We never lose our cool with him though and there is certainly no hitting. Yesterday, he told us in the car that a certain survivor's story on the radio made him cry. My husband answered him that he made us cry. That was certainly a conversation stopper. Crying

We actually just had an interesting idea - DH and I. We thought that maybe we would give him a certain amount of money each week to put in a piggy bank, and to be used only with our ok (I don't want him buying sweets). This would be for helping a certain sibling who needs social help. This way, he would be able to save his own money while giving to someone else. Maybe win-win all around. DH said to tell him that it's mine and his secret and that noone else knows about it, including DH. He wants me to be the "yemin mekarevet".

FranticFrummie

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:29 am

Wow, this is straight from Hashem! Just last night, I couldn't sleep, so I was watching YouTube documentaries. One of them was on criminal behavior and ADD.

Your kid is not a "bad kid". His frontal cortex is not working properly, so his impulses are not reaching the part of the brain that says "Wait a minute, maybe this isn't a good idea."

The documentary took very extreme cases of disturbed children with ADD, and showed their progress with a combination of medication, behavior therapy, and biofeedback. The results were incredibly hopeful.

Punishments and natural consequences mean NOTHING to these kids. If anything, they act as rewards, because they thrive on excitement and danger. The excitement stimulates the part of the brain that is under-responsive, and acts as positive reinforcement. One teen who loved to steal cars said that "Being chased by the cops was the best part." Jail meant nothing to him, it was just another interesting experience.

Warning, the video starts out with disturbing narrative (but not images). Trust me, it gets better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxGZGPvyPo

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:32 am

amother wrote:

So maybe I should just put my son up for adoption since our house must be too controlling.
Thanks for the supportive post. Not.