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Enraged at child
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 3:05 pm
carrot wrote:
there are elements that are supposed to be in a parent-child relationship that are not supposed to be in a husband-wife relationship, and vv.


I absolutely agree with you!

Obviously there are privileges and obligations that apply between spouses that do not apply between parents and children.

I am addressing one thing, and one thing only, physical (and verbal) abuse of a child as compared to physical (and verbal) abuse of a spouse.

Quote:
So even though it doesn't make it right to be too violent with your kid, it is not the same as a spouse pushing the other spouse a little too hard. a spouse should not even be a teeny bit physically forceful with the other, at all, ever


it's not right to be TOO VIOLENT with your kid shock you say , but it's not the same as with your spouse - please explain why it's not the same!

sarahd - I think the chinuch issue is besides the point as I explained that I am focusing exclusively on abuse here. Nevertheless, since your brought it up:

Quote:
A husband has no business trying to be "mechanech" his wife


it sure is his business ... see Rambam etc.

I'm glad you brought up, "hachosech shivto sonei beno" (he who withhold his rod, hates his child). ALL authorities are in agreement that if you hit a child in frustration, or in anger, or because you are overtired or in a bad mood, that this has NOTHING to do with chinuch. Many, if not most authorities say that hitting has no place in chinuch, but if you ARE going to hit, it must be done calmly, rationally, deliberately, and solely for the purpose of being mechanech the child.

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(BTW, are we to understand from your post that you think that the amother whose arm was twisted, who is being beaten twice a month, is not a victim of abuse? Please clarify.)


how about the other way around - that the child who is hit or handled violently and pushed, is being abused!

this is what astonishes me, that so far, nobody in this thread has reacted with the same horror as they did with the woman writing about her husband

why do we (and I include myself) condone parents hitting their children or otherwise mistreating them, and sympathize for their lapses, rather than saying: THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, EVER!!!!!!

These children are entrusted to us and it is our holy duty to guard them and protect them and NEVER TO MISTREAT THEM.

why do we look away when it comes to children but sound the alarm when it comes to a spouse? I have yet to hear an acceptable reason.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 3:26 pm
Quote:
why do we look away when it comes to children but sound the alarm when it comes to a spouse? I have yet to hear an acceptable reason.

Motek, no one is saying its acceptable. even the amother knows its not acceptable which is why she posted in the first place.

abusive husbands think it IS acceptable to be abusive and thats the main problem in those relationships.
if a mother was truly abusing her child, people would definitely call social services.

Quote:
These children are entrusted to us and it is our holy duty to guard them and protect them and NEVER TO MISTREAT THEM

of course.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 3:36 pm
RG wrote:
if a mother was truly abusing her child, people would definitely call social services.


ah, but do we think that potching occasionally is truly abusing a child? seems not

but occasional slapping a wife is called "true abuse"

why the double standard?

and NOBODY in this thread said - that roughly handling a child when frustrated is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE and it must stop!
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 3:51 pm
ah, but do we think that potching occasionally is truly abusing a child? seems not [/quote]
it depends, as you wrote before- it could be abuse if done out of anger, its not abuse if done to be mechanech.

I dont like hitting at all because I think there are plenty of other ways to get the message across.

Quote:
but occasional slapping a wife is called "true abuse"

Motek, there are women here who really are in an abusive relationship, and words like these further the excuses they have not to get help. I dont think this discussion is very helpful for them.
"occasional?" what would you define as "occasional?" do you think once or twice a month is "occasional?" I think this kind of thinking is really misguided.

Quote:
why the double standard?

there is no double standard. intentional hitting is not condoned even in preschool where kids are punished for using their hands instead of their mouths.

Quote:
and NOBODY in this thread said - that roughly handling a child when frustrated is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE and it must stop!

well, I do think it is completely unacceptable, and we know it must stop, which is why amother posted here to begin with.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 4:03 pm
Quote:
it depends, as you wrote before- it could be abuse if done out of anger, its not abuse if done to be mechanech.


let's be honest

do we know anybody who potches solely to be mechanech? not out of anger, frustration etc.

I don't know anybody. And if there are people like that, they are exceedingly rare.

Quote:
I dont like hitting at all because I think there are plenty of other ways to get the message across.


is the point here whether someone likes it or not?

Quote:
Motek, there are women here who really are in an abusive relationship, and words like these further the excuses they have not to get help. I dont think this discussion is very helpful for them.


you got it backwards, for children who are potched or otherwise physically (and verbally) abused are really in abusive relationships and focusing exclusively on spousal abuse while not condemning the same type of abuse of children furthers the excuses that mothers have . Oh yes, they/we may feel guilty but hey, we're human and if we give lots of love at other times, our kids will turn out okay. Work on your middos etc. Why don't you think THIS kind of thinking is misguided?

there absolutely IS a double standard! just because schools are not allowed to hit doesn't mean that MOST parents will tell you that OF COURSE they hit

Quote:
well, I do think it is completely unacceptable


yet you didn't post that earlier!
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 4:17 pm
Motek I'm confused Scratching Head
So here we go again in circles Confused and I did say it's wrong to beat hit any human being but when someone truly asks for help to repent how can I turn around and tell her nope your child has to be taken to social services.
And holding an arm firmly and that the child falls down is abusive but not like the husband and wife scenerio and yes husband and wife is different. Also we never said about divorce but a safety period which means seperation and speaking to a Rav. I fail to comprehend how the two can even be compared. Also once or twice a month like amother says conc her husband hitting I mean you believe that she actually counts how many times he hits or is it more like 4 or 5 times, plus it escalated from hitting to twisting an arm the pattern of violence increased a step Exclamation
Here it has and will not b/c amother is aware and wants to try to fix the problem.
Kol Hakovod amother hope our advice has and will help you.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 5:17 pm
Quote:
let's be honest
do we know anybody who potches solely to be mechanech? not out of anger, frustration etc.


honestly? I dont know anyone nowadays who patches at all. I noticed it more when I was younger, and no, I dont think ive ever seen it done by the parent to the child except out of anger and frustration which I think is unacceptable and which is why I find other ways to discipline because I dont trust myself to be the kind of person who can hit without any frustration or anger, which is why I posted before:
Quote:
I dont like hitting at all because I think there are plenty of other ways to get the message across
. (just clarifying because you asked why I posted that.)
.
BUT, I have seen it done/ heard stories, of a teacher who gave a student a very light slap on the cheek- and the reason was SOLELY to be mechanech, and the message was successfully transmitted. the proof that it wasnt done out of anger/frustration is that it was a LIGHT slap, NOT meant to hurt, but only meant as a message.

Quote:
you got it backwards, for children who are potched or otherwise physically (and verbally) abused are really in abusive relationships and focusing exclusively on spousal abuse while not condemning the same type of abuse of children furthers the excuses that mothers have .

I do condemn patching children when it is abusive. but when someone says, "unfortunately I have this problem, and im trying to change it- do you have any suggestions,..." im not going to tell her that she is horribly abusive and deserves to lose her kids. the same way that if I heard from someone's husband that he has a small problem and by accident he did something very wrong and wants desperately to change himself- I would try and give him suggestions, and not necessarily beat him up about it. these things have to be decided each case by its own because abusers rarely want to change at all of their own accord. believe me, im not looking to break up relationships- not for married people and not a parent-child relationship. when people come asking for help for themselves, it wont help them to put them in jail, call child services, etc.
and, a mother who accidentally holds her child too firmly does not have the same controlling abusive character traits that an abusive husband most usually has. an abusive husband needs a lot more help than just changing his child-disciplining methods and a few parenting classes.
Quote:
Oh yes, they/we may feel guilty but hey, we're human and if we give lots of love at other times, our kids will turn out okay. Work on your middos etc. Why don't you think THIS kind of thinking is misguided?

I think that kind of thinking is very wrong. its silly to think that just because you "balance it out" your kids will eventually turn out okay. and I do hope my kids turn out more than just "okay." Confused

Quote:
MOST parents will tell you that OF COURSE they hit

perhaps we should take a poll? Wink

Quote:
Quote:
well, I do think it is completely unacceptable

yet you didn't post that earlier!

because I didnt see a need to. when someone asks for help on their own accord, im not going to beat them up about what they do.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 5:17 pm
Freilich, thank you. You, and the other's advice really did help me. Just knowing that I am not the only one with an (occasional) anger problem makes it easier to work on myself and practice patience.

Motek, according to your theory, even yelling at your child is considered abuse, because I certainly would NEVER yell at my husband, and he would never yell at me. I do yell at my children sometimes when they are not behaving, or need stong repremanding.

I don't condone violence, and like I said in the beginning, I am not talking about smacking, hitting, twisting arms, or anything like that. Sometimes I am so angry that when I lift my child to put him in his room, I feel myself gripping his arms harder than I would if I were not in a state of rage (maybe it is a strong word). Afterwards, I am in anguish for a long time about it every time it happens, and I wish I could control myself better. I am constantly working on myself, and every morning I psych myself up for another day with the kids and give myself pep talks to stay calm.

Please tell me I am not the only one???
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IndyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 7:04 pm
Motek,

I'm curious how you are mechanech your children.
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cindy324




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 7:28 pm
Yes I am enraged at men who beat their wives. Yes, I am enraged the same way when parents beat their kids. These people all have behavioral problems and need counseling and be removed from the people they abuse.. However, amother posted that when she really loses it, she'll grip his arms a bit harder and she'll put him down a bit harder and she feels terrible about it and wants advice desperately on how to deal.She does not give her child regular beatings, like a true abuser does. She wants to learn to be able to control herself, unlike a true abuser who thinks the problems is the abusee(is that the correct term?), and deserves or is asking for the beating. So when I wrote that the "human waste should be locked up, I was referring to these abusers, who make their spouses (or chiuldren )live in fear of their lives.

And that is why the situation is not the same

Also in some homes spanking, or patching is a form of discipline and is definetly not considered abuse by social services.

Then again, is spanking or patching your spouse considered a form of discipline? NO It's considered abuse because it's not a husband's place to discipline his wife that way.
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 31 2005, 8:15 pm
IndyMom wrote:
Motek,

I'm curious how you are mechanech your children.


she beats them up Banging head
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 7:54 am
heres my view.

Abuse can any form mental or physical. I feel that mental is much much worse. The scars last longer, bruises heal.

When most of us saw this thread we identified with the mom. Cause most of us are moms. We all know that we have gotten mad, and may have gone a little too far than we should have suppose to when it comes to discipling our kids. So with this thread we identified with the argessor believe that she wanted to change and what she was telling us in her post was the worst that had happened.

With the spusal abuse thread. We identified with the victom cause she was a woman. We thought that what she was telling us in her post wasn't the worst and that things could get worse. Which is why so many woman took that her husband twisted her arm out of anger and he is bad and that woman shouldn't take that abuse and immediatly leave their spouse.

the biggest difference to me. Is that the abuse to a child is the worse. In both cases the abuse is having severe effects on the child. If parents are arguing alot with loud yelling, do you think this doesn't effect a child? If a parent is short with thier child, do you think they aren't short with their spouse?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 8:11 am
A different amother :

Motek- your question has been answered several times already. The difference between a parent-child situation and a husband -wife situation is in the hierarchy. The more power imbalance there is in a relationship, the more acceptable it is to use physical force. Consider these examples : A farmer whipping a horse to make it go faster. A man smacking his puppy to teach it not to make on the floor. A master whipping his slave. A woman patching her child. A husband pushing his wife. These situations range from more to less socially acceptable depending on the power /control balance inherent in the relationship. So, clearly the person is in a more powerful position than an animal and so it is acceptable to use physical force. This is less so with a child and even more less so with a spouse- why ? Because our spouses are supposed to be our equal. We are not supposed to have any power differences with them. In the olden days, men were considered the masters of their homes and women were just another form of children and it was completely acceptable to use violence against them. My grandfather, a very nice man, would smack my grandmother around. And would talk to her like she was a child. And she thought it was 100% normal. Because in those days it was. It is considered horrible now only because husbands and wives are expected to treat each other as equals nowadays.

Children are not supposed to be our equals, however. That is why it is okay to punish them. How you do it- time outs, reprimands, patches- that depends on many things, such as how well you control your temper, how much you know about parenting, etc. In comparing it to a spouse, it is not okay to punish your spouse. I would find a husband who puts his wife in time out just as horrible as someone who smacks her. Actual physical danger aside, that is. My point is that it is not the actual physical abuse (unless there is a real danger) that horrifies everyone about the abused woman, it is the obvious messed up balance of power- the husband thinks his wife is like a child and so he can push her, twist her arm etc.
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cindy324




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 12:27 pm
amother, I think that was very well put!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 3:54 pm
RG wrote:
honestly? I dont know anyone nowadays who patches at all.


well, as most mothers will tell you, potching has definitely not gone out of style

mothers have done it in front of me

Quote:
I do condemn patching children when it is abusive.


and by abusive you mean not solely for chinuch purposes?

Quote:
but when someone says, "unfortunately I have this problem, and im trying to change it- do you have any suggestions,..." im not going to tell her that she is horribly abusive and deserves to lose her kids.


that certainly hasn't been suggested

I am just registering my astonishment that out of all the women who condemned physical abuse between spouses, not one condemned physical abuse (definition: not solely for chinuch purposes) of children
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ilvmommyhood

Guest


 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 4:02 pm
I don't know anyone who potches. Maybe when I was a kid, but not these days! Maybe you just know some people who need some serious help.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 4:06 pm
Quote:
she beats them up Banging head

Roza w/h a hammer shock your poor kids
Twisted Evil
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 4:21 pm
amother wrote:
This is less so with a child and even more less so with a spouse- why ? Because our spouses are supposed to be our equal. We are not supposed to have any power differences with them.


What is your Torah source for saying this? As far as I know, Torah sources say the man is the head of the household and that this applies not only in the "olden days" but now too.

Quote:
In the olden days, men were considered the masters of their homes and women were just another form of children and it was completely acceptable to use violence against them.


again, in Torah sources, if the man was disciplining his young wife (who may have been what we call a child), he too was obligated to do so not in anger, out of frustration, bad mood etc.

Quote:
And she thought it was 100% normal. Because in those days it was. It is considered horrible now only because husbands and wives are expected to treat each other as equals nowadays.


Are you talking Torah standards or the world's standards?

Quote:
My point is that it is not the actual physical abuse (unless there is a real danger) that horrifies everyone about the abused woman, it is the obvious messed up balance of power- the husband thinks his wife is like a child and so he can push her, twist her arm etc.


I don't know about that. Seems to me that it's the actual physical abuse that bothers the posters here. That's what was posted over and over.

And back to your first statement, it has become more and more a prevalent idea that children are our equals. That you need to respect children just like they need to respect you. That children ought to have an equal voice in the home. That the home should be run as a democracy. That children are our pals. That children have the right to call the police if they think theirr parent abuses them (including the usual parenting). Many frum parents believe this.

I agree with you that children are NOT our equals, but I wonder where this equalizing of children is heading ... (side point)

But although I agree that children are not our equals, and that we can/should punish them, I don't think my question was answered a single time (never mind several). The question still remains:

Why do we consider physical abuse of a child, (to be defined as hitting etc. that is done not solely for chinuch purposes), different and more acceptable than physical abuse of an adult. The hierarchical explanation explained degrees of power but it does not explain our attitude.

I propose that it's not different though we have grown up thinking it is.

ilvmommyhood wrote:
I don't know anyone who potches. Maybe when I was a kid, but not these days! Maybe you just know some people who need some serious help.


well if you read this thread then you met at least one other person who potched and it did not sound like she needed serious help

I am certainly glad that you don't know anyone who potches (One lovely woman I know who is a good mother in many ways and devoted to her children, told me regretfully that she potches sometimes. I have never seen her potch. So parents who potch don't necessarily do it in front of you.) The women I've seeing potching their kids are as normal as anybody else and are simply doing what lots of parents do. They surely think it's a normal form of discipline.
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ilvmommyhood

Guest


 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 5:46 pm
There are plenty other ways to be an effective parent. Potching is not the only way to get your kids to listen. Potching only teaches a kid to either be scared of doing anything cause they will be potched or that it is okay to hurt others to get your point across. Any parent who takes a deep breath and counts to 20 and makes sure they are 100% calm when about to potch will think twice why they are potching their child.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 6:12 pm
I think that patching/spanking is a valid form of discipline- provided that it is rare, controlled and effective. Hitting out of anger, in an uncontrolled way, is not okay. But sometimes a good spanking is the best, quickest way to get your point across. Like when your child is running into the street, for example, and you need to stop him.

I don't think that children are or should be equals of adults, and so it is okay to punish them and provide consequences for their behaviors.

Motek, you ask for Torah sources on male-female relationships, and I don't have any for you sorry. But I would guess that those sources that you have that emphasize a distinct power imbalance favoring the husband would also not have a lot of problems with the husband using occasional physical force to get his message across. Sad In our society today that is not acceptable, but it may have been the norm 100 years ago.

Also, this thread has really gone off topic. Maybe someone should start a "is spanking okay" thread in controversial topics or whatever.

By the way, I am posting as amother b/c I spoke about my grandparents in the last post and no one needs to know who I am/they are.
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