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Enraged at child
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 9:34 pm
I am not an expert and don't have any sources, but I highly doubt that hitting a wife was OK 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago. I learned about how a man must respect and cherish his wife, he must treat her better than he treats himself. He should love her as much as he loves himself. Can anyone find a source to a man being allowed to hit his wife at any time in history???
While I never hit my kids, I know that it is a valid form of discipline that was very common until not too long ago, and the Torah talks about it. There is a concept of children having Yirah - being afraid of their parents, and subsequently, Hashem.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 9:52 pm
amother wrote:
I think that patching/spanking is a valid form of discipline- provided that it is rare, controlled and effective.


I agree, just think it's almost never done like that.

Quote:
Hitting out of anger, in an uncontrolled way, is not okay.


Would you word that more strongly and say:

Hitting anyone out of anger, including a child, in an uncontrollled way, is cruel, abusive, and a sin?

Quote:
But I would guess that those sources that you have that emphasize a distinct power imbalance favoring the husband would also not have a lot of problems with the husband using occasional physical force to get his message across. Sad


if it's a Torah source, do you have a problem with it? again, just to sure we're talking about the same thing, it's about physical force without anger, for the purpose of discipline

Quote:
By the way, I am posting as amother b/c I spoke about my grandparents in the last post and no one needs to know who I am/they are.


Off the forum at first I wondered, why anonymous. Then I remembered about your grandparents and understood.

I was wondering, whether regardless as to whether it was the norm for their culture or not, and regardless as to whether your grandmother accepted it or not, would you agree with the posters in the Marriage Abuse thread that your grandfather should have been reported and jailed?

re imbalances in marriage, the Rambam is often quoted about the husband and wife's marital obligations and they are not equal!

yes, the husband is supposed to honor his wife more than himself and love her as himself, and yes, the wife is supposed to honor her husband exceedingly (and the Rambam says nothing about love). Rambam adds that she should fear/be in awe of him and do everything as he would like and he should be like a minister or king ...

and physical discipline is halachically acceptable, again, when done in an a halachically acceptable way
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 01 2005, 10:38 pm
Potching never helps unless it's done once in a blue moon w/h love and once not more b/c then it b/comes a beating.
Also one is not allowed to humiliate a child publicly by screaming ridiculing or hitting. These r no no's. Which unfortunatley I've seen Sad and children who r constantly screamed at b/come screamers themselves and will scream back at you, those who hit mercilessly their children it will haunt them till later on in adulthood and distant their child from them since they will be remembered for the hurt and pain they did to defenseless neshamas. And those that tease or poke fun at ones children the same will happen to them the pain will be felt even in old age. We have to be dugma chay to our family and kids and treat everyone w/h love and respect.
We do not believe in hitting once in awhile yes a potch has been called for but I can count on my fingers how much. Timeout, withdrawing certain privliges in a calm manner can get the message across more then hitting ever could. Someone who resorts to constant hitting is a weakling who can't be bothered to find any other resort and a bully imo unless it's a Tzadik ones referring to and then whom am I to judge
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 02 2005, 12:13 pm
Quote:
if it's a Torah source, do you have a problem with it? again, just to sure we're talking about the same thing, it's about physical force without anger, for the purpose of discipline


I don't know. See, I think that maybe just bringing a source that says it was okay then, doesn't mean its okay now. Like with slavery- there are many halachos and sources about eved canaani and eved ivri and all that and if anyone now decided to take a slave and relied on " the Torah says its okay "- it would be very bad and not socially accepted at all. Criminal even. So just b/c you have a source that says it is okay for the husband to "discipline" his wife, it doesn't mean it is okay nowadays.

About my grandparents - No, I don't think that he should go to jail or whatever. Just like I don't think that those who owned slaves before the civil war need to apologize to their descendants today. We can't judge the previous generations by today's standards. But I will say that having seen him hurt her and having seen her tolerance for it made me respect both of them so much less. But I guess I am judging them by my own experiences and generational standards.

And also, if you have a source that allows a husband to discipline his wife physically, please quote it. Does the rambam say that ?
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 02 2005, 12:52 pm
Motek wrote:


if it's a Torah source, do you have a problem with it? again, just to sure we're talking about the same thing, it's about physical force without anger, for the purpose of discipline




Motek wrote:


re imbalances in marriage, the Rambam is often quoted about the husband and wife's marital obligations and they are not equal!



those marital obligations are different, btw husband has more obligations, and the wife has less obligations.
Now, is it against the Torah if the husband and wife agree on certain things? like she will keep the salary, or that they will hire a cleaning lady or house keeper so that the wife can be free from that. those are just some examples where mutual decision making is certainly not against the Torah.
obviously, there is more in halacha then what you are trying to present here.


Motek wrote:


yes, the husband is supposed to honor his wife more than himself and love her as himself, and yes, the wife is supposed to honor her husband exceedingly (and the Rambam says nothing about love). Rambam adds that she should fear/be in awe of him and do everything as he would like and he should be like a minister or king ...

and physical discipline is halachically acceptable, again, when done in an a halachically acceptable way


thanks for reminding us again and again about the permission for a husband to beat up his wife. and you think that the only (halachic) problem with that is the feelings (anger) of husband? what about hillul Hashem and other consequences? what about shalom bais? are there any halochos about it?
is the Rambam the only source for beatings, are there any other opinions, do other poskim agree with Rambam?
May be Rambam does not talk about love, but what about the mitzvah Veahavta Lereacha Kamocha? does it apply between husband and wife?

Motek wrote:


Off the forum at first I wondered, why anonymous. Then I remembered about your grandparents and understood.

I was wondering, whether regardless as to whether it was the norm for their culture or not, and regardless as to whether your grandmother accepted it or not, would you agree with the posters in the Marriage Abuse thread that your grandfather should have been reported and jailed?


this is not a fair question. we are not talking about jail then there (think tzarist Russia, Stalin, Communist party when a person could simply get killed in jail for no reason) and jail now (in 21st century) in USA.

There are few reasons why a husband (even jewish, even frum) can be reported to the police for domestic abuse:

1. The police now is not like then (when ppl get jailed for life), nobody gets jailed for no good reason.

2. There is a defense system in place and any person (even the most evil) can defense himself with no problems.

3. The Beis Din system in our days does not have a power to enforce their rulings, many, many ppl don't comply with Beis Din. In cases like these (where the person's safety is in question) we are allowed to use USA police for protection, [and to use legal system in general]

[ you might think that how terrible it is that beis din has no power now (for example , before if the person was told not to enter certain territory, he wouldn't), but that is another question, and halachah deals with reality as it is now]
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 02 2005, 1:04 pm
amother (before me), I did NOT see your post, it probably came in while I was writing mine, and it's looks like I repeated what you said already. sorry.

Last edited by roza on Tue, Aug 02 2005, 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 02 2005, 1:08 pm
freilich wrote:
Quote:
she beats them up Banging head

Roza w/h a hammer shock your poor kids
Twisted Evil


with plastic hummer (you know - those soft ones that make noise), why not? What it's about physical force without anger, for the purpose of discipline, why can't she? Rolling Laughter
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 02 2005, 3:36 pm
ok this is amother number 3 I guess I many times shout at my child cause she gets into my make up or bag and it makes me very mad when I see her with my lipstck all over or a big mess. my husband always says why are you shouting at her she is only 2. how do you let a 2 year old know what they are doing is wrong???? and she keeps doing it again and again AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! frusturating!!!!
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613




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 02 2005, 4:22 pm
can you put the makeup bag somewhere where she can't reach it?
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 12:08 pm
There is a difference between spousal abuse and child abuse. Child abuse is worse because the child has no way to escape it.
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de_goldy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 12:12 pm
Hm... I happen to think that grabbing a child harder, or putting them down with more force would almost be the equivelant of hitting or arm-twisting for the other amother. After all, a child is so much more vulnerable that for them the pain is probably equivelant. Not to mention the emotional pain which would far outride that of the wife.
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613




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 12:14 pm
de_goldy wrote:
Not to mention the emotional pain which would far outride that of the wife.

REALLY? I (B"H!) can't imagine the emotional pain that an abused woman goes thru!
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 12:17 pm
Quote:
Not to mention the emotional pain which would far outride that of the wife.

shock de goldy what do u mean
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de_goldy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 12:22 pm
That a young child (or any child) who is being abused, likely has it a lot harder than a wife who is being abused. For a child, the only people in his world are his parents. They are there to love and cherish him. Not to hurt him.
A wife on the other hand, hopefully, has other people in her life (parents, friends, siblings, relatives) who can and will continue to love her and be there for her.
Therefore, I was saying that an abused child is likely to suffer more emotional pain than an abused wife because for the child, it is his whole entire world crumbling, whereas for the wife it is just one person (albeit a VERY important on in her life!).

Hope that clarified things...
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 12:27 pm
So let me ask you and I don't know statistics so I really dont know! But someone who hurts a wife what makes him not hurt the kids when his wife is not there or available Question
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 1:58 pm
But what about a wife that hurts her kids when she is angry, what stops her from hurting her husband. I think de-goly is right a shild is WAY WAY more sensitive.

Abuse comes in so many forms. They are all very harmful.

Neglect is a very harsh but very common form of abuse. There are many homes with children with parents who rarely spend time with their kids due to jobs or personal problems. Even though not intentionel is still abuse. I know a few families where they definetly neglect their kids.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Aug 03 2005, 4:01 pm
Motek could you please tell us where it says that it is halachikly acceptable to use physical discipline on a wife.
That she has to fear and be in awe of him doesn't tell me anything.
He also has to respect her and his obligations to her contradict such a theory.
my husbands older siblings were in terror of their father and he never hit them.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 04 2005, 10:29 pm
amother - is there a reason why you didn't respond to:

Quote:
Would you word that more strongly and say:

Hitting anyone out of anger, including a child, in an uncontrollled way, is cruel, abusive, and a sin?


Quote:
See, I think that maybe just bringing a source that says it was okay then, doesn't mean its okay now. Like with slavery- there are many halachos and sources about eved canaani and eved ivri and all that and if anyone now decided to take a slave and relied on " the Torah says its okay "- it would be very bad and not socially accepted at all. Criminal even.


Allow me to make a correction here, though this and the Rambam etc. is really diverting the topic (not that diversions aren't sometime welcome but in this case I think it's obscuring the main point).

The reason why we don't have slaves any more is NOT because we became more enlightened and realized it's bad. It's NOT because it's not socially acceptable and criminal. Torah laws don't go out of style! If these laws are in the Torah it's because they are True and Good. The reason we don't have slaves anymore has to do with having a beis din or some such technical halachic reasons that I'm not familiar with.

Would you mind telling us how old your grandparents are and what culture they are from? I can't say I understand your explanation about different standards of different generations in this regard.

Oh and thanks again Roza for twisting what I wrote out of context to put it in a negative light and make me look bad, as it serves as a reminder that you're just G-d's shliach etc.

re sources - the point was very much a side point that was made to counter the non-Torah idea that Jewish husbands and wives are equals which is a completely different subject (some of which was covered in the thread called Marital Obligations and the thread called Isha Ksheira). For any further information on it, pm me.

1stimer and de_goldy made some good points

I think that if you reread the past few pages with my original point in mind, you will see it clearly. The point is

Quote:
I am addressing one thing, and one thing only, physical (and verbal) abuse of a child as compared to physical (and verbal) abuse of a spouse.


Quote:
why do we (and I include myself) condone parents hitting their children or otherwise mistreating them, and sympathize for their lapses, rather than saying: THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, EVER!!!!!!


Quote:
These children are entrusted to us and it is our holy duty to guard them and protect them and NEVER TO MISTREAT THEM.


Quote:
children who are potched or otherwise physically (and verbally) abused are really in abusive relationships and focusing exclusively on spousal abuse while not condemning the same type of abuse of children furthers the excuses that mothers have .


and it's not about beating per se, but ANY slapping, potching etc. that is done in anger

I am still dismayed at the vehemence expressed in the marital threads as opposed to the sympathy and understanding in this thread. Maybe if we reacted with alarm and horror when a friend or relative acts in anger to a child, we could make hitting a child in anger just as unacceptable as hitting a spouse.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 06 2005, 3:17 pm
Quote:
I am still dismayed at the vehemence expressed in the marital threads as opposed to the sympathy and understanding in this thread. Maybe if we reacted with alarm and horror when a friend or relative acts in anger to a child, we could make hitting a child in anger just as unacceptable as hitting a spouse.


I have to agree with this. It's a lot about an attitude. People think it is more acceptable to hit a child (out of anger) than to hit a spouse. Which is why you have parents who would never hit each other hit their kids. Ditto for emotional abuse, ppl think that it is more acceptable to verbally bash a spouse than it is is to physically bash. Which is why you have ppl that would never hit but they would call names insult etc. when angry.

On a related issue, my dh told me a terryfying story. He was walking past a school in the morning, and a child (about 4 yrs) was crying that he didn't want to go to school, so his mother yelled at him, 'I hate you, I'm getting rid of you'. IMNSHO it is worse that she did it in public b/c it is one more barrier she broke for herself. sad.
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 07 2005, 4:40 am
Crying Crying Crying Nebach, the poor child.
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