Bobov 45 Have you heard the story in this week Inyan, before

amother

Denim

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 4:38 pm

I'm asking this question respectfully and trying to understand. If reb naftuli has special miraculous kochos, and is able to communicate with greats from 1000's of years ago to mamesh change the gzar and take infertile couples and bless them with children, why doesn't he help cure people who have cancer and r'l other terrible illnesses? Why aren't bobovers and for that matter all yidden protected from tragedy?

groisamomma

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 4:57 pm

amother wrote:

Other than to cast doubt on the power of this particular rebbe's tefillos, why is this a question? We can ask that of any tzaddik that's ever given a bracha to anyone about anything that's ever come true, including Moshe Rabbeinu.

crust

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 5:10 pm

Ok. I'll make it quick because if not I will probably never do it.

There was a melamed in Bobov who convinced a student of his to take off his 'tchup'.
When R' Shlomo zatzal learned about it he called that melamed in for a private talk.

In a very respectful way Reb Shlomo explained to him that he has a different mehalech in chinuch and that pursuading students or their parents to take off their tchup is not his style.
In short, this melamed was laid off.

Sais this melamed; For a period of approximately 6 months, Reb Naftulche ran after him with his wages!
And its not like the mosdos were in a good place financially at that point. Even Reb Naftulche himself was living in poverty. He stretched himself in order to save another yid's dignity.
The wages continued to come untill he re-established himself with another parnasah.

I heard this story from the grandchild of the person with whom it happened. Whenever the zeide repeated this story he was overcome with emotion at the middos of Reb Naftulche. He saved his dignity and he saved him from drowning.

זי"ע

leah233

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 5:27 pm

crust wrote:

Totally off topic but I'm guessing there was some other reason they wanted to fire him but to save him the humiliation they told him we have a different mehalech in chinuch.

It's hard for me to believe someone would be fired, without prior warning, for convincing (not forcing) just one person to cut off his tchup in a community that does not approve of tchups.

crust

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 5:45 pm

leah233 wrote:

If you know Reb Shlomo and his soft spot to every yid it makes sense. He wanted his mosed to be run in a certain way.

To me this part was a warm reminder that there was a time in history when things in mosdos were not so commercialized with a bill of rules dictating acceptance.

But perhaps I should take off this part because it takes away the point.

Oy I am getting a headache. Can't Believe It

I have no agendas here I only related the story the way I know it.
I herby give permission for everyone to draw whichever conclusions they feel they must make.

Here's to a good week Cheers

Last edited by crust on Sat, Jan 05 2019, 5:54 pm; edited 2 times in total

iyar

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 5:51 pm

Thank you crust!
I don't think you should take off that part but of course do what makes you comfortable.
Unlike leah233, I don't think the Rebbe was "just saying that". I didn't know the Rebbe well, but from the little I know he was an ish emmes and wasn't the sort to just say something.
I could be wrong here but I think there's a message in that part of the story too.

leah233

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 6:01 pm

iyar wrote:

Firing someone (even if you do pay his salary for the next six months) is an extremely serious decision.

I won't comment on this further but I don't see how a teacher convincing, not forcing, one person to follow a haskafa that the school's community follows can be grounds for dismissal without prior warning . Particularly when it was just one thing that can easily be rectified.

Even in a chinuch sense it would be a bad idea. If a school gets a reputation that they fire so easily no one qualified would want to teach there and all the rebbeim would be scared to say anything of influence because they might get fired for saying it

Therefore I remain convinced there had to have been some other reason they wanted to fire him .

amother

Denim

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 7:48 pm

groisamomma wrote:

Good point. This has always bothered me about so called modern day nissim. Once we are talking about a real nes, why don't we ever see indisputable real nissim? Like why can't a person missing a leg go to kvarim and get brochos from many rebbes and have the leg grow back? This we all could agree is a real bonofied nes. This shouldn't be any harder than making an infertile couple have a baby.

amother

cornflower

Sat, Jan 05 2019, 10:26 pm

amother wrote:

This is off topic from the thread title but it really requires an answer.

Real.nissim are for little children.

The history of the world needs to be viewed as a parallel to the history of mankind. In our early history we needed Hashem to totally there for us like a parent is there for a baby or young child. Just like a baby suckes milk whenever s/he needs and has everything s/he requests immediately so too in those days Hashem gave us open miracles. To be mechanech us so that when we grew up we would still have emunah.

Then we grew up and like a loving parent Hashem pulled away a little. So He spoke to us not through direct miracles but through nevviim. Still there to advise, but not absolutely on top of us.

The next stage was the height of the written and oral Torah , where as "adults" we communicate with Hashem by davening and learning His Torah. Like an adult child will talk to his parent for advice on things, and follow in the ways that s/he was taught as child. Or even, as the Jewish people being the wife while Hashem is the "husband".

At the end of days, which we are approaching, it is becoming clear that Hashem is only known in this world through the actions of the Jewish people. When we keep the Torah and Mitzvos and do chessed in the world, Hashem is known in this world. This has been described as the Jewish people being known as the Mother of Hashem.

If this doesn't make sense then it just means I'm not explaining it properly.

amother

Lime

Sun, Jan 06 2019, 1:18 am

amother wrote:

So would you say that people who soak up miracle stories and flock to kivrei tzaddikim are stuck in the infantile stage? Do you think these people are holding us back from geula?

(Edited for spelling.)

sky

Sun, Jan 06 2019, 6:03 am

amother wrote:

There are differences between hidden or possible miracles and public or impossible miracles.

In general there is an idea it is ‘easier’ for Hashem to preform the hidden or possible. Who says Hashem wants us to know it’s a ‘bona fide nes’.

This is why people don’t publicize illnesses or don’t do lots of maternal testing (no genetic testing or no ultrasounds) because there is more chance for miracles to occur. Even once a couple hears there may be an issue with a pregnancy they are often advised to keep it quiet for this reason.

For a childless couple to have a child is so much more explainable within teva. You yourself are probably thinking it just happened nothing to do with davening. (they tried a new treatment, the dr missed something, this time it worked, etc) for a leg to grow back it is 100% counter teva and can’t just be explained away as natural.