Secular college for undergraduate

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:43 pm

amother wrote:

No offense, but this school is nicknamed "Fairly Ridiculous" for a reason. I grew up in NYC, and we always thought of it as a joke.

Just because people had silly names for a university doesnt mean it was a bad school, it just had an easy name to be made fun of. I went there and it was a fine university.
If you didnt go there, dont assume anything about the school.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for the contact info for the dorming - but how can I find the frum students?

You can't. Nor should you. If your daughter is old enough to be in seminary, and old enough to be in college, she is old enough to seek out her own peers.

She'll find them at the kosher dining halls. At lectures or activities that attract a more frum crowd. At Chabad.

If you want to ask about frum life on campus, I suggest contacting Chabad or Hillel at the school.

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

I think Touro is fine - dh thinks it's not good enough academically. I totally agree about the secular colleges.

It sounds like your dh thinks that a sheltered girl with few qualifications ought to be able to sail through Harvard and land a lucrative job while hermetically sealed off from any new ideas. Reality check - something's gotta give.

amother

Gray

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:59 pm

I have a masters in an engineering type of field, and my experience has been that no one gives a care in the world where your degree is from, as long as it's accredited. But I'm sure the field of study makes a big difference in this regard.
I'm getting the impression that your primary concern is the reputation and status of a college. I think that you should first choose a profession, and then choose a school based on that. Success is not dependent on a diploma.

SpottedBanana

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:13 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

You can't. Nor should you. If your daughter is old enough to be in seminary, and old enough to be in college, she is old enough to seek out her own peers.

I agree with your opinion, but this is rather harsh for something that is just an opinion on parenting. OP isn't more likely to change her style of parenting because someone told her what she shouldn't do on the internet.

Also I echo the statement on engineering. As I apply for more and more jobs I realize that people really don't care if I went to Penn or Penn State. Sigh. But I did get to do really cool research here and have been very challenged in school. That's a big factor -- is it important for you/DD for her to learn how to function in environments where she is by far not the smartest or would she rather go to a school where she will be top in her classes?

amother

Brown

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:18 pm

I agree on the writing curriculum. Her classmates will and can write about anything, and she will be required to read and listen carefully enough to critique and offer suggestions.

Also, the reasons a school like Columbia would accept for not dorming would be things like "I'm raising a kid" or "I take care of my disabled mother", not "we don't want her living in that environment."

I suggest that dd / dh speak to people in the fields of her interest and ask them what is looked at as important when they enter the field. Dd is premed. She had been worried about going to an undergrad with a great reputation, but was told that when you're practicing, they only look at med school, and med school wants a decent college, great grades, and good internships, and that Touro was a good vehicle for those things. I also suggest that dh speak to a rav he respects.

amother

Mint

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:38 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I'm not sure what ranking you're looking at, but Forbes' list has CUNY Brooklyn at 343, Hunter at 328, and Touro at 511. Queens is 290. Baruch 200.

US News

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:59 pm

amother wrote:

US News

86 regionally. That excludes national schools like Columbia, NYU, etc in this region, which are considered national schools.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:05 pm

My husband was told by his charedi ruv to do public uni and not look into YU. Granted our unis don't have campus/life.

amother

Purple

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:28 pm

Is your daughter capable of keeping up with the schoolwork of these colleges, assuming she gets admitted?

I'll add another voice as to the ridiculousness of favoring Columbia over Stern, especially as parents who are so concerned about avoiding evil liberal influences.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 2:59 pm

I can truly understand may of the points of view presented here, even if they're not mutually consistent.

I really do understand what the OP is saying regarding Stern and YU. I know the Breuer's community well, and at least when I was growing up, anti-Zionism was a basic principle. So I get what the OP is saying. On the other hand, Rav Hirsch's opposition to returning to Israel predated the founding of modern Zionism, and even Rav Breuer's opposition to the founding of Israel would surely have tempered with time.

I see different facets to the issue of going to a top-rated university. I had the good fortune when finishing graduate school to be offered positions at several top-rated universities, including two Ivies. I accepted one. In my first year, I was shocked, when attending a graduate-admissions committee meeting, to find out that an applicant who had Cs in his major subject at Harvard was ranked higher than an applicant who had straight As from SUNY Albany. Basically, they wouldn't even look at anyone from a public university that wasn't top ranked. That is, applicants from UCLA, Berkeley, and U Michigan stood a chance. A place like Rutgers or Ohio State? Not a chance, even though these are fine universities in my field. So yes, I have witnessed the snobbery toward people without degrees from the Ivy League. (And they snickered, not just behind my back, but in front of me, about my lower-middle class background.)

But you know, so what? The fact is that today, even students from the Ivies can have a very tough time getting in to a top-rated graduate program. The student with Cs from Harvard won't get in. I don't think the student with As from Harvard has much of a chance unless (s)he also has had good internships during his/her undergraduate years and has done research with top professors. Often getting the internships means living away from home during the summer, something you don't want to consider.

I understand that your DH regrets not finishing college. But what really made things hard was that your DH didn't get the degree, not that he didn't get it from Columbia or Penn. You want a school that your daughter will feel comfortable in and will excel in. The best choices are probably Touro or Brooklyn or Queens College, as long as she can find a coterie of girls that she feels comfortable with.

I wish I understood what one learns in a business major or what one does with it. (If I had a sense for that, my life would be a lot easier.) But I know what one learns in writing classes, and one thing that does concern me is the quality of the education in that respect that your daughter would get at Touro. I would think a place like Queens College or Baruch would have better teachers who take seriously their mission to cultivate their students' talent for writing. I may be wrong about this.

I have heard that Sarah Lawrence has a great writing program. Years after finishing college, I took a writing course at the Gotham Writers' Workshop in Manhattan. I had a terrific teacher who had studied at Sarah Lawrence. However, I hear that that's where many OTD girls go, so that is something to be cautious of. And I've never heard of a business program at Sarah Lawrence. Queens or Baruch would probably be the best places where she could study both fields.

Good luck. I really do sympathize. It is a hard decision. Just be realistic. I say this as someone who realizes that I'm unlikely to have a kid who goes to an Ivy League. It's just too tough these days, and my job as a parent is to set realistic expectations, not to demand the impossible, and realize that success is not measured just by being able to get to the top of a very steep heap. Life is not defined by the four years you spend in college.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:03 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

86 regionally. That excludes national schools like Columbia, NYU, etc in this region, which are considered national schools.

The Forbes ranking is better in this regard, since it doesn't divide into universities and colleges, national and regional. The US News and World Report slicing and dicing obfuscates rather than clarifies. Then again, I'm not taking the rankings too seriously. When the time comes in a few years, we'll try for a couple in the top 10 or 20, but basically, we'll just work toward getting into a university where there is a religious community. I want college to afford the ability to get a good education, meet a potential zivug, and grow in religious commitment and personal development. If it's not in the top 20 or 50 or 100, we will all survive.

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:18 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I think your daughter might be able to turn her very frum background into an advantage in the college admissions process if she writes an essay explaining how she grew up in a very sheltered community and now wants to expand her horizons. The college admissions board may feel that she could add to the diversity of the student body. But it's a long shot.
.

Excellent idea!

Everyone who applies to Ivys has top grades and outstanding extra curriculars.

Ivys go extra in looking for diversity!

amother

Yellow

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 5:11 pm

OP here - thank you everyone for your feedback - I really appreciate it!

amother

Salmon

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:07 pm

something else to consider:

most people who do a degree in English, history, literature, writing, etc. end up with basically no job prospects. I can't tell you how many people I know who have either paid out tens of thousands (if not more) or racked up massive student debt, to do those kinds of degrees, only to graduate and get a random low-paying job you don't a degree for at all, just to start paying off the loans. Most recently I met someone with 200K debt from NYU and she is working in the box office of a theater. A lot of those people end up going back to school later for a more practical degree.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 6:25 pm

Have you considered discussing this with a Rav? As a mom, I would want to ensure that all the chinuch you gave her and all you have invested in her remains that way. With all good intentions, things may not go as smoothly as you plan. All it takes is a friend who is a negative influence to take one downhill fast.

Another point, if shes a great BY type girl and gets a degree from Columbia etc, your shidduch options may be vastly diffetent from what she is looking for.

Wishing you Hatzlacha and clarity!

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 8:08 pm

amother wrote:

No offense, but this school is nicknamed "Fairly Ridiculous" for a reason. I grew up in NYC, and we always thought of it as a joke.

I'm sorry that you didn't like my post.

I was checking out colleges for someone, and I came across this information online - that FDU has a program that allows someone to transfer in 90 credits (seminary credits, yeshiva credits, cleps, whatever), and they would just have to finish with 30 credits. This program seemed to have been geared to the frum community, but it's possible that this program no longer exists. I'm sorry if I gave misleading information.

FDU IS considered a reputable university, AFAIK, perhaps in the Jewish world they knew about this 90 credit transfer, but outside of THIS community it is decent. I completely understand that it is not an Ivy League, though.

Also wondering though... undergraduate, like an earlier poster mentioned, is not as important as graduate school. May it be worthwhile to go to a medium college, get great grades, and try for top graduate school?

Also, according to Malcolm Gladwell, you are better off being the TOP, TOP of a medium school then in the middle of the class at an Ivy League school. If you search youtube, he has a youtube video explaining this concept - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UEwbRWFZVc

I don't know if he is right, but it's interesting.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 09 2017, 8:32 pm

[quote="JoyInTheMorning"
I wish I understood what one learns in a business major or what one does with it. (If I had a sense for that, my life would be a lot easier.)
[/quote]

I am about one semester away from a degree in business, so I'll tell you. Most business degrees require classes in accounting, economics, business law, marketing, management, and finance, along with regular gen eds. I personally enjoyed these classes a lot, but TBH, the only class that I found even vaguely relevant was business law - I personally think that everyone should take this class - it is VERY relevant to everyday life. All the other classes... not so much.

The only upside I can see is that I at least understood some of the things that Donald Trump was saying during the debates. I feel that the journalists that were reporting on the debates (who probably have never seen a business class in their life) were at a serious disadvantage in understanding the underlying concepts of Donald Trump's remarks. I only took two intro. to economics courses, but it does help me translate a lot of the "noise" in the media when they discuss the economy and so on. Just a thought.

amother

Lemon

Tue, Oct 10 2017, 12:35 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

"I think your daughter might be able to turn her very frum background into an advantage in the college admissions process if she writes an essay explaining how she grew up in a very sheltered community and now wants to expand her horizons. The college admissions board may feel that she could add to the diversity of the student body. But it's a long shot."

This is what my ds did to get into a highly regarded university, having never gone to a non-Jewish school. He is a Creative Writing major and believe me, the things he is exposed to and involved with in this major would blow your mind. Needless to say, despite living in spitting distance of the Campus Chabad (and being highly involved socially), he went off-the-derech. He is now what I would consider a Reform/Conservative level of observance. Nebach...I know he is happy, but it is so sad that he has lost so much Jewishly.

Not making that mistake with dd19, who is headed for shana bet. We have offered her online degree, Touro, New Sem, etc.. Her realtionship with the Abishter is more improtant. Hatzlacha

amother

Mauve

Wed, Oct 11 2017, 3:50 am

So this is a really interesting thread for me to follow, as my mom went to CUNY, I went to Stern, and dd attends Touro. We live in manhattan and have met recent students from both NYU and Columbia.
NYU has a rep for being very liberal, pro Palestinian, and has a high suicide/depression rate. Located in the village which is like the highest lgbt concentration on the east coast. Really if you haven't seen it, hard to believe. Would not recommend undergrad for anything.
Columbia is probably similar and even the minyan going crowd there is not going to dress anything like yeshivish. Honestly, there is a reason why most yeshivish kids don't go there. There is a reason why JLIC is expanding to more campuses, we are losing good kids from nice families on campus EVERY DAY.
Times have changed. When my mom went to Brooklyn college it was largely Jewish. When I went to Stern, there were many bright girls who were somewhat yeshivish who went there. Back then Touro was not taken seriously as an option. But since then they have started an honors program and grant nice scholarships to those with high SAT scores. And they have a network of graduate schools also.
So to sum up, do your homework on the facts NOW. Talk to other parents your hashkafa and the rav. Don't get hung up on the ivies. And just FTR, dd and I are plenty bright and academic. Good luck!