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What to do when u find out that your school teaches kids...
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Sue DaNym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 11:55 am
... that there were rainbows b4 noach?I dont have kids yet so it doesnt apply to me yet but my sis just told me that her son learned this in yeshiva.how can a yeshiva teach things that are kneged torah -- the torah says b'feirush that the rainbow was created as a sign between hashem and noach and all life. she asked me for advice but ithought id ask other people first since im not sure how to proceed.

any advice?
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 12:09 pm
everything was created in the 6 days of creation shock didn't you learn that ... in preparation for the right time ...
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Sue DaNym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 12:12 pm
greenfire wrote:
everything was created in the 6 days of creation shock didn't you learn that ... in preparation for the right time ...


of course... but it didnt appear until noachs time.thats the pasuks point. my nephew is being taught that they always existed.
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Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 12:13 pm
Oy vavoy and here I was nervous after reading you title that there was s-x-ed or bc or something like that!
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Sue DaNym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 12:16 pm
Mimisinger wrote:
Oy vavoy and here I was nervous after reading you title that there was s-x-ed or bc or something like that!


sorry didnt mean to scare you
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brooklyn




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 12:19 pm
I was reading the artscroll chumash and iirc there is a commentary that says that the rainbow was there before and that after the flood hashem made that the sign that he would never make another flood.
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DefyGravity




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2007, 12:22 pm
I was going to say something similar to Brooklyn. Does it actually say in the Chumash that a rainbow was never seen before? Didn't G-d say that now it would be a sign that a flood would never happen. Perhaps before it was around, it just wasn't a symbol of anything.

Scientifically, it's impossible that a rainbow wouldn't have occured if the conditions were available.
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greentiger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2007, 12:24 am
There are many conflicting things in the Torah -no one right or wrong. You just have to know that there is no one way to learning that contridicts all the others -there is truth and there is deeper truth. As long as what he is being taught is mesorah, by reliable rabbiem, then you have nothing to get nervous over.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2007, 1:50 pm
The mishna in perek 5 of Avos says the rainbow was created erev Shabbos. Found this:

Quote:
How can the rainbow, a predictable natural phenomenon, be a sign of the covenant between G-d and man that G-d will not bring another flood? The following are among the answers offered by the commentators:

R' Avraham ibn Ezra z"l (12th cent.) writes: The physical laws which cause a rainbow to appear first came into existence after the flood. (Ibn Ezra: Bereishit 9:13) [Most commentaries disagree with this.]

R' Ovadya Sforno z"l (15th cent.) writes: The rainbow referred to in this parashah is the not the rainbow with which most people are familiar (called a "primary rainbow"). Rather, it is a so-called "secondary bow," whose colors are the mirror image of a primary rainbow. Scientists have been unable to explain why a secondary bow occurs. (Sforno: Bereishit 9:13) [Today the reason is understood.]

R' Yitzchak Abarbanel z"l (16th cent.) writes: The physical laws which cause a rainbow to appear existed from creation, but there had never been a rainbow before the flood. This was due to a difference in atmospheric conditions before and after the flood. (Abarbanel: Bereishit 9:13)

Maharal z"l (16th cent.) explains: The scientific explanation is the immediate reason why a physical event occurs. The Torah's explanation is the ultimate reason why the event occurs. (Be'er Hagolah, Part VI) [Note: Maharal was addressing Chazal's explanation of eclipses, not rainbows, but the same principles apply. In essence, Maharal teaches that science explains "how"; the Torah explains "why."]

R' Yehonatan Eyebschutz z"l (18th cent.) writes: The Torah is not referring to the regular rainbow but to a techelet/blue-colored rainbow. This is a sign of G-d's covenant because of the similarity between the Hebrew words "techelet" and "kelayah"/"destruction." (Ya'arot Devash I:12)

R' Pinchas Eliyahu Horowitz of Vilna z"l (19th cent.) writes: There is no reason why parties who wish to make a sign between themselves cannot choose an existing natural object to be that sign. Something is a "sign" because people decide to treat it as such.

http://www.torah.org/learning/.....int=1
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2007, 2:03 pm
I guess I never really thought about it.
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zeldy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 18 2007, 3:11 am
Sue, some of your problems stem from ignorance. Try to avoid bashing people and ideas that you disagree with until you do a little more research. Not everything that you have not heard of is "neged hatorah".
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 18 2007, 3:25 am
Sue DaNym wrote:
... that there were rainbows b4 noach?I dont have kids yet so it doesnt apply to me yet but my sis just told me that her son learned this in yeshiva.how can a yeshiva teach things that are kneged torah -- the torah says b'feirush that the rainbow was created as a sign between hashem and noach and all life. she asked me for advice but ithought id ask other people first since im not sure how to proceed.

any advice?


Of course there were rainbows before the flood! It says in Pirkei avos:

[ו] עשרה דברים נבראו בין השמשות--פי הארץ, פי הבאר, פי האתון, והקשת, והמן, והמטה, והשמיר, והכתב, והמכתב, והלוחות

The Torah says:
יב וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, זֹאת אוֹת-הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר-אֲנִי נֹתֵן בֵּינִי וּבֵינֵיכֶם, וּבֵין כָּל-נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה, אֲשֶׁר אִתְּכֶם--לְדֹרֹת, עוֹלָם. יג אֶת-קַשְׁתִּי, נָתַתִּי בֶּעָנָן; וְהָיְתָה לְאוֹת בְּרִית, בֵּינִי וּבֵין הָאָרֶץ. יד וְהָיָה, בְּעַנְנִי עָנָן עַל-הָאָרֶץ, וְנִרְאֲתָה הַקֶּשֶׁת, בֶּעָנָן. טו וְזָכַרְתִּי אֶת-בְּרִיתִי, אֲשֶׁר בֵּינִי וּבֵינֵיכֶם, וּבֵין כָּל-נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה, בְּכָל-בָּשָׂר; וְלֹא-יִהְיֶה עוֹד הַמַּיִם לְמַבּוּל, לְשַׁחֵת כָּל-בָּשָׂר. טז וְהָיְתָה הַקֶּשֶׁת, בֶּעָנָן; וּרְאִיתִיהָ, לִזְכֹּר בְּרִית עוֹלָם, בֵּין אֱלֹהִים, וּבֵין כָּל-נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה בְּכָל-בָּשָׂר אֲשֶׁר עַל-הָאָרֶץ. יז וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, אֶל-נֹחַ: זֹאת אוֹת-הַבְּרִית, אֲשֶׁר הֲקִמֹתִי, בֵּינִי, וּבֵין כָּל-בָּשָׂר אֲשֶׁר עַל-הָאָרֶץ. {פ}

After the flood, Hashem set the rainbow as the sign of the brit that He wouldn't bring another Flood. Where does it say that it didn't exist before? It merely took on a new purpose.
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grapesonavine




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 31 2007, 11:59 pm
Maybe I'm wrong about this but I thought that I learned that before the flood the atmospheric conditions were such (it didn't rain) that there were no rainbows. After the flood, then there was regular rain falls thus the possibilities for rainbows. IDK Am I wrong?
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 1:18 am
DefyGravity wrote:
Scientifically, it's impossible that a rainbow wouldn't have occured if the conditions were available.


Now, now, Defy... don't you know science has no place in a discussion of Torah Rolling Eyes

But seriously... I'm going to agree with what's been said - that just because Hashem chose the rainbow as the symbol of His promise to Noach, doesn't mean it didn't already exist. It just took on an added meaning.
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Apple pie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 2:06 am
Thank you Motek for posting some sources- very interesting Thumbs Up

Kmelion wrote:
DefyGravity wrote:
Scientifically, it's impossible that a rainbow wouldn't have occured if the conditions were available.


Now, now, Defy... don't you know science has no place in a discussion of Torah Rolling Eyes .


Rolling Laughter
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cdawnr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 7:03 am
Kmelion:
great sources!

Sharon22:
I've never heard that it didn't rain before the flood. Doesn't the Midrash say that nothing grew during the six days, just the potential was laid out, until Adam was created and he davened and then it rained and everything grew then. (ok, really poor summerization of the midrash, but if you know it then you know what I am referring to)
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 10:03 am
Quote:
R' Yitzchak Abarbanel z"l (16th cent.) writes: The physical laws which cause a rainbow to appear existed from creation, but there had never been a rainbow before the flood. This was due to a difference in atmospheric conditions before and after the flood. (Abarbanel: Bereishit 9:13)
This was discussed at our Shabbos table. (See sicha of Shabbos Noach, Sefer HaSichos 5751, and Likkutei Sichos vol 15, pg.51-55). The phenomenon of rainbow was created, and potentially there, however because the gashmius of the world was so much more dense before the flood, therefore the physical conditions that cause a rainbow to appear didn't make it appear then.

The Flood purified the world, in that the physicality of nature was refined, (as also seen in the change of seasons, decrease in life-spans) so that the world no longer had the same susceptablility to produce humans who stooped to such low ways. It was then that the atmosphere and nature of the clouds, water vapor etc. became refined in that they could refract the light in the form of a rainbow.

Quote:
The mishna in perek 5 of Avos says the rainbow was created erev Shabbos. Found this:
However, the pi haaretz didn't appear till the machlokes of Korach in 2449. The other items ( all of them had the common factor of being a supernatural creation, which is why they were created on Erev Shabbos bein Hashmoshos - a time that is a transition between the physical and spiritual, mundane and holy) too didn't appear untill the time in history when they were called upon.

pi ha'ason - the time of Billam, the shomir - when the Beis Hamikdosh was constructed.... etc.

So although the physical properties and koach for a rainbow to present itself when the conditions are right was there from when it was created, Hashem made the keshes as a sign for Noach because up till that time, the conditions were such that it hadn't appeared, and was therefore a reminder of the Mabul, and the Bris that Hashem made not to destroy the world again.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 10:31 am
Quote:
In Likkuttei Sichos vol 15, pg.52On the verse: My rainbow I have placed in the cloud, and it will be for a sign of covenent between me and the earth", the meforshim ask: A rainbow is a natural thing, it comes from that which the suns rays are reflected(in a certain way) by the clouds -so how can it be a sign of a covenant?

They answer: This very nature,(that the suns rays and the clouds should be the particular circumstance which then the rays are reflected by the clouds in a form of a rainbow) G-d created after the Mabul:

Before the Mabul, the atmosphere was very corporeal; and therefore the clouds too (which form from " a mist would go up from the earth breishis 2:1) were more physical and they couldn't receive and reflect the light of the son - therefore the entity of a rainbow didn't exist; specifically after the world was purified- and the clouds became "eideler" more refined - not so thick - till the point that they refract the colors of the sunlight.

[And this is also how it was spiritually: Before the Mabul, the world was in "a low level (state)" till "there was no refinement possible"; and because of this the Mabul transpired - "to opurify the earth so that there could be the Avodas hbirurim]

And therefore the Keshes is a "sign of Bris between Me and the earth", because throught the rainbow is expressed also the purification and refinement which earth experienced.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 10:33 am
the sicha continues with a question:
Quote:
The very reason that the Mabul that came to purify the world, was brought, was because of that generation, in which the world was corrupt and the land was filled with crime”

Since the world is a macrocosm of man, "haolam nosan b'libo" (Koheles 3:11) the sins of humanity caused that also the world became completely debased – and this impurity and chumriyus (corporeality) is what the Mabul cleansed and removed.

However, according to this –that the existence of the rainbow came only after the Mabul, because then the clouds ( and the world in general) became more refined- it appears that through the mabul the world (not only became cleansed from the impurity and corruption of the generation of the mabul but) became more refined than even before the sin of that generation and even more than it was at the beginning of Creation itself(since then there was no rainbow then, which indicates the refinement of the world, as above.).

The explanation:

At the beginning of Creation the perfectness of world was connected (not with the nature and properties of existence of the world itself, but) with (the manner and energy of) it’s Creation – "עולם על מילואו נברא" the world was created complete" (Breishis rabbah) (ie. in a complete way):

But in order that the world from its own nature should be able to be refined – this was accomplished by the Mabul: Hashem invested a new ability and property in the world, that in itself, it should have the potential to become refined and elevated.

This is the reason that precisely then, the (nature of) the existence of the rainbow was innovated: Even though the rainbow is created through the sun’s rays and the clouds together, however, it is mainly connected with the clouds – not the suns rays (indicating shemesh havaye tehillim 84) which are simple – in their color- and are separated into the colors of the rainbow through the clouds, which derive from the mist which rises from the earth, and the mist which rises from earth are in such a (refined) way, that the light of the sun can be reflected in them.

And since the property of refinement of earth (that world itself should have the possibility of refinement and elevation) was innovated after the Mabul- therefore davka then “my rainbow I have placed in the cloud” was instated: Hashem included in the makeup of clouds (which forms from earth) rainbows ie. that the “mist" that "shall rise from the earth” should be in a manner of refinement that in them should be seen the light of the sun.


Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Nov 01 2007, 1:53 pm; edited 4 times in total
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 10:37 am
Thank you Tzena. In advance too. Reading what you posted is a breath of fresh air.
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