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Forum -> Relationships -> Manners & Etiquette
I never know what to call grownups



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amother
Crimson


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 2:29 am
Seriously. It sounds ridiculous. I'm over 30, not even a "young" adult anymore, and I still never know whether or not I'm on a first name basis. I call countless people "Hi, how are you?" and tend to wait for phone calls rather than initiating them because I don't know what to fill in the blank for "Hi, is _____ available?"

Specific example that is getting increasingly uncomfortable:
I made a friend who is I'm not sure how much older than me. I'm 30ish with young kids, she has a couple of married kids, a couple of kids even younger than mine, and a full string of others in between. She's a grandmother, but a new/young one. So maybe 10-15 years older than me. Maybe 45ish, if I had to guess.
Her husband is a rabbi but I don't think she considers herself a rebbetzin. But then I found out she gives Torah classes somewhat regularly. Not a community or shul rebbetzin though. The rabbi-husband is a kollel type rabbi who has also put out a couple of books, but again not a community/shul type rabbi. Respected, but no rosh yeshiva. If I were addressing him I would definitely say "Rabbi Lastname."
When I say I made a friend, well she treats me as a friend but I really consider her more of a mentor. I don't think the relationship is entirely reciprocal, much as she talks in a way to make me feel comfortable as if it is. I don't do her favors like she does for me simply because she never needs any - she's very well networked and has plenty of helpful kids and family members.
When she calls me she says "Hi, this is Firstname."
So I'm not sure what to do - I don't know if she's "firstname" to me, but I also don't want to make her uncomfortable or create distance by calling her "Rebbetzin" and I don't even know whether it would be "Mrs." or "Rebbetzin."

Further complicating things is that I may think of her as being an older/mentor/rebbetzin person who is definitely not in my league, but on the other hand I have an actual sister who is very similar to this. Of course to me she is a (much) older sister. But same idea - she is over ten years older than me, has a couple of married kids, a new grandchild, and her husband is definitely a rabbi. So I'm a little confused - of course there's a difference between a sister and a non-relative, and also a difference between someone you grew up calling by first name and someone you met when they were already a shiur-giving rabbi's wife. But on the other hand it makes me think that maybe I am in an age/relationship bracket where I could conceivably call someone like this by their first name.

I mean, people who were always my mother's friends or my friends' mothers of course I call Mrs. Lastname. That's how we grew up. But what happens when your friend's mother now has a kid in your kid's class and you are meeting all the other parents by their first name but still think of her as Mrs. Friendsmom? Or how does it happen that people the same age as Mrs. Momsfriend, if you meet one as a coworker, despite being much older than you, gets introduced by their first name? So even though you were introduced by first name, they look the same age as your mother, so you keep calling them things like "Hey, did you notice if the copy machine is working yet?"

So basically I almost never make phone calls except to definite friends, definite professionals, or definite rebbetzins. Never mind that on the phone you also have the problem of asking for them. I could say "Hi, is your mother home" but then you take the risk that it actually is the mother and she just sounds really similar to her daughters (I have done this. It was embarrassing. I don't do this anymore.) I usually stick to the safe side and say "Is Mrs. Lastname available?" Because that's pretty much appropriate across the board, when you may or may not be talking to one of the other household members.

But in person it's just as bad. I literally wait for their attention because I don't want to be too obvious about calling someone I've known for two years already "Hi there" or "ahem."

OK, yes, I know I have a bit of a social anxiety problem going on here. But I can handle the anxiety if only I knew what I'm actually expected to do. Please help. Especially with regard to calling this rebbetzin by her first name or not! It's getting ridiculous!
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 2:41 am
FWIW regarding the Rebetzen friend, I would call her Mrs. X, and if she corrects me and says, please call me Firstname, I'd move to calling her Firstname. If she doesn't say anything, continue calling her Mrs. X.

I have a 'friend' whose youngest son is friendly with my oldest. Which means that she is a grandmother already. Her grandchildren are in the same class as my youngest, and her youngest is in the same class as my oldest.
I actually don't even know her first name. When I have to call her (usually some yeshiva-related question), I call her Mrs X, and she never corrects me. I think that's weird, but there you have it.
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myname1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 3:43 am
If she calls and says "Hi, this is firstname," then I think you can call her that. You can also ask someone you're close to who is in the same situation what they do. But I have the same issue with that kind of people, so don't think it's so silly. If they call and say "Hi, this is firstname lastname," then I find it more difficult to decide.
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 6:37 am
amother wrote:
Seriously. It sounds ridiculous. I'm over 30, not even a "young" adult anymore, and I still never know whether or not I'm on a first name basis. I call countless people "Hi, how are you?" and tend to wait for phone calls rather than initiating them because I don't know what to fill in the blank for "Hi, is _____ available?"

Specific example that is getting increasingly uncomfortable:
I made a friend who is I'm not sure how much older than me. I'm 30ish with young kids, she has a couple of married kids, a couple of kids even younger than mine, and a full string of others in between. She's a grandmother, but a new/young one. So maybe 10-15 years older than me. Maybe 45ish, if I had to guess.
Her husband is a rabbi but I don't think she considers herself a rebbetzin. But then I found out she gives Torah classes somewhat regularly. Not a community or shul rebbetzin though. The rabbi-husband is a kollel type rabbi who has also put out a couple of books, but again not a community/shul type rabbi. Respected, but no rosh yeshiva. If I were addressing him I would definitely say "Rabbi Lastname."
When I say I made a friend, well she treats me as a friend but I really consider her more of a mentor. I don't think the relationship is entirely reciprocal, much as she talks in a way to make me feel comfortable as if it is. I don't do her favors like she does for me simply because she never needs any - she's very well networked and has plenty of helpful kids and family members.
When she calls me she says "Hi, this is Firstname."
So I'm not sure what to do - I don't know if she's "firstname" to me, but I also don't want to make her uncomfortable or create distance by calling her "Rebbetzin" and I don't even know whether it would be "Mrs." or "Rebbetzin."

Further complicating things is that I may think of her as being an older/mentor/rebbetzin person who is definitely not in my league, but on the other hand I have an actual sister who is very similar to this. Of course to me she is a (much) older sister. But same idea - she is over ten years older than me, has a couple of married kids, a new grandchild, and her husband is definitely a rabbi. So I'm a little confused - of course there's a difference between a sister and a non-relative, and also a difference between someone you grew up calling by first name and someone you met when they were already a shiur-giving rabbi's wife. But on the other hand it makes me think that maybe I am in an age/relationship bracket where I could conceivably call someone like this by their first name.

I mean, people who were always my mother's friends or my friends' mothers of course I call Mrs. Lastname. That's how we grew up. But what happens when your friend's mother now has a kid in your kid's class and you are meeting all the other parents by their first name but still think of her as Mrs. Friendsmom? Or how does it happen that people the same age as Mrs. Momsfriend, if you meet one as a coworker, despite being much older than you, gets introduced by their first name? So even though you were introduced by first name, they look the same age as your mother, so you keep calling them things like "Hey, did you notice if the copy machine is working yet?"

So basically I almost never make phone calls except to definite friends, definite professionals, or definite rebbetzins. Never mind that on the phone you also have the problem of asking for them. I could say "Hi, is your mother home" but then you take the risk that it actually is the mother and she just sounds really similar to her daughters (I have done this. It was embarrassing. I don't do this anymore.) I usually stick to the safe side and say "Is Mrs. Lastname available?" Because that's pretty much appropriate across the board, when you may or may not be talking to one of the other household members.

But in person it's just as bad. I literally wait for their attention because I don't want to be too obvious about calling someone I've known for two years already "Hi there" or "ahem."

OK, yes, I know I have a bit of a social anxiety problem going on here. But I can handle the anxiety if only I knew what I'm actually expected to do. Please help. Especially with regard to calling this rebbetzin by her first name or not! It's getting ridiculous!


I am 45ish and would hate a 30 something to call me "Mrs X".
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 7:27 am
I would call the mentor Mrs. Lastname and leave it at that unless she corrects you.
Your sister obviously stays Firstname. Smile
Your mom's friend / friend's mom who was always Mrs. and who's child is now in your class still stays Mrs. even if you call everyone else by their first name.
New people you meet are Firstname even if they're older than you.
Your mom's friends / friend's moms stay Mrs.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 7:46 am
amother wrote:
I would call the mentor Mrs. Lastname and leave it at that unless she corrects you.
Your sister obviously stays Firstname. Smile
Your mom's friend / friend's mom who was always Mrs. and who's child is now in your class still stays Mrs. even if you call everyone else by their first name.
New people you meet are Firstname even if they're older than you.
Your mom's friends / friend's moms stay Mrs.


I do that except new older people, I'll do madame unless told otherwise.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 11:35 am
Call all people by their title and surname. If they want you to use their given name, they’ll tell you.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 11:38 am
I'm 45 and I still don't feel I get to call everyone I meet by first name. Anyone who appears to be 15+ years older than me I automatically call Mrs.______ and if they ask me to call them by first name fine, but I wont take that liberty.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 11:40 am
You can never go wrong when you use the formal form of address, and then let the person correct you if they want to be more casual.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 11:45 am
amother wrote:
I'm 45 and I still don't feel I get to call everyone I meet by first name. Anyone who appears to be 15+ years older than me I automatically call Mrs.______ and if they ask me to call them by first name fine, but I wont take that liberty.

But what if the woman you think is 15 years older than you is really only 3 years older than you. I find that the older we get there is such a variation in the way people age and it is really harder to guess people's age.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 11:45 am
salt wrote:
FWIW regarding the Rebetzen friend, I would call her Mrs. X, and if she corrects me and says, please call me Firstname, I'd move to calling her Firstname. If she doesn't say anything, continue calling her Mrs. X.

Yes this is what I wish I had done a couple of years ago when the question would have been Mrs or Rebetzin. After having shmoozed countless times and made myself comfortable in her home or family over a couple of years I'm just too embarrassed to start with that. I keep hoping one day I'll be over at her house at the same time as someone else my age with great social skills and see what they do. embarrassed
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 11:53 am
chanchy123 wrote:
But what if the woman you think is 15 years older than you is really only 3 years older than you. I find that the older we get there is such a variation in the way people age and it is really harder to guess people's age.


Mistakes are made. It is hard to guess age. But if I call someone 3 years older than me (or even 3 years younger than me) Mrs._____ then worst case scenario I come off as being very formal or old-fashioned. I'm okay with that. I'm not as okay with assuming to be chummy with a woman who is significantly my senior.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 3:40 pm
I'm in my 40s and because of my position (in chinuch), many people call me Mrs amother. I prefer to be called by my first name and consistently introduce myself with it but if people don't get the hint I just drop it, it's not a big deal.

What I do find slightly strange is when people (my age or younger) introduce themselves to me as Mrs lastname and then call me by first name...
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 4:36 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
But what if the woman you think is 15 years older than you is really only 3 years older than you. I find that the older we get there is such a variation in the way people age and it is really harder to guess people's age.


Exactly. I look younger than my age and so almost never have people address me as Mrs X. They say things to me like "when you get to my age" and I have to explain that I have already surpassed their age and then some. It usually results in them shifting uncomfortably.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 5:37 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
But what if the woman you think is 15 years older than you is really only 3 years older than you. I find that the older we get there is such a variation in the way people age and it is really harder to guess people's age.


That’s why you use an across the board policy for all humans over the age of 18. 16 to be safe. Don’t bother guessing age. Some people look 16 when they’re 25 and vice versa. By using the same standard for everyone you will never find yourself in a predicament. Use title and surname until asked otherwise.

As an alternative you may ask people upon introduction “how would you like to be addressed?” If they say “Your Majesty” you know you’re in trouble.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 6:00 pm
Omg I am so so happy you started this thread.
This is me exactly.

I'm a teacher in my 20's and never know what to call the 40 year old teachers as they refer to themselves as first names. In front of the students I say Mrs. but just with them I never know. I'll refer to them by first name when mentioning them to another teacher but not to their face. Also the coordinator on top of me everyone calls her first name but I'm not sure if I should or not since I'm younger.

In general when I meet ppl I call them by their last name of they look significantly older but if they look within 10 years I call first name.
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 6:14 pm
amother wrote:


In general when I meet ppl I call them by their last name of they look significantly older but if they look within 10 years I call first name.


But that's the point I'm making. I get called by my first name all the time (vs Mrs X) because I look younger than I am. Guestimating age is not a good strategy IMHO. Basically because I don't look "significantly older" even though I am, I don't get called Mrs! Not that I particularly mind, just saying. Wink
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 6:24 pm
zaq wrote:
Call all people by their title and surname. If they want you to use their given name, they’ll tell you.


I think it really depends on the community.

In my community, they would think that you have 3 heads if you called someone "Mrs." Three, not 2, because 2 is not weird enough.

So first, know your crowd.

Next, if the person calls and says "this is Firstname," then you can assume that she wants to be called Firstname.

Finally, no weirdness. Someone in our community calls my friend's mother "grandma." It drives my friend's mother nuts.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 6:48 pm
In English, I never know either.

In Russian, there are a variety of options:

Tatyana Vasil’evna (full name and patronymic)
Auntie Tanya
Tanya (first name only), but still addressed as “vy” rather than “ty”

And in Ukrainian, there is the additional option of Pani Tanyu, which is Mrs. Firstname in the vocative (rather than nominative) case, a form of address that is both affectionate and respectful.

But yeah, in English it’s tricky Smile
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