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Article: Ex-Chereidim cannot save liberal Judaism
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 7:30 pm
https://forward.com/scribe/390.....aism/

The article was written by an ex-Chabad Jew, who now attends a Conservative synagogue with his wife and kids.

The premise of the article is that liberal Jewish movements are failing and losing members and that ex-hareidim could breathe fresh air into them, however, the majority of those who went OTD, are not looking for a replacement religion and reject liberal Judaism as fake.

He ends up by saying that it is patronizing to assume that liberal Judaism needs the ex-hareidim but he believes that the ex-hareidim do need the liberal community.

Question #1: are those who go OTD better off in liberal Jewish communities or are they better off remaining unaffiliated?

Question#2: If you answer yes to question #1, how would you go about recruiting the ex-hereidim into liberal Judaism?

Question#3: Do you agree with the premise of the article that liberal Jewish groups have noting to gain from the ex-hereidim?

Question#4: Would those who go OTD and are using drugs or are otherwise in danger of being sucked into a destructive life be better off in liberal Judaism, even though those forms of Judaism do not promote the fact that the Torah was given by Hashem or that the mitzvahs have to be fulfilled?

Question#5: Are those movements really dying and should they be trying to recruit members, especially those who left Orthodoxy?

Guess what?? I have no answers or strong opinions on this and admit that I don't know all of the ins and outs of this situation. Halachically, I think, anyway, that there is the opinion that Judaism that isn't true to the Torah is worse than no Judaism at all. Psychologically, however, it may provide at least some tie to Judaism that would keep the person anchored in the Jewish community, increasing the possibility that they would someday return to the Torah way of life. So that brings up back to question #1.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 7:35 pm
The ex chareidim have nothing in common with liberal judaism. Why are they being lumped together?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 7:48 pm
amother wrote:
The ex chareidim have nothing in common with liberal judaism. Why are they being lumped together?


Did you read the article? About a third of ex-Chareidim do join liberal synagogues but the remaining ex-Chareidim want nothing to do with it.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 7:52 pm
Ex charedim usually are not interested in any form of Judaism they just do and keep wherever they feel like without commitment
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 8:08 pm
amother wrote:
Ex charedim usually are not interested in any form of Judaism they just do and keep wherever they feel like without commitment


That is exactly what the article said but I was surprised that around a third actually do join liberal shuls.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 8:30 pm
southernbubby wrote:
That is exactly what the article said but I was surprised that around a third actually do join liberal shuls.


It could be for the commonality of culture.

My parents knew a retired couple who were atheists but were part of a Jewish Humanist group. They would celebrate the holidays and come together for discussion groups. They identified as Jews and felt more comfortable with other Jews than with non-Jews although they obviously interacted with people from a broad range of religions and cultures.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 10:10 pm
As far as #4, any lifestyle that grounds them is better than a druggie lifestyle especially when there are kids involved.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 10:27 pm
It helps to understand that the article is in response to Anshel Pfeffer, who lives in Israel, where non-Orthodox movements don't have state support. Pfeffer would like to see a place for liberal movements and weaken the rabbanut (which, ironically, has been taken over by charedim) so filling non-Orthodox shuls with ex-charedim seems to him like a good idea. I think he's indulging in wishful thinking.

Israel offers a form of Jewish identity to ex-charedim, but that's not available outside of Israel. So I can see where someone in the US might go to a Conservative synagogue to find a community. In Israel, society as a whole recognizes shabbos and kashrus, even if the majority may not observe halacha.

I've heard variations on this question for years. If you leave Williamsburg, why not go to Teaneck? And the answer is that just because the externals are different, and there's more individual autonomy in Modern Orthodox communities, you still have the same core beliefs. If those beliefs are repugnant to you, wearing different clothes won't make a difference. What if you move out of Orthodoxy altogether? That crosses the red line of belief, but If you left religion because you distrust authority, you're going to reject all authority.

The question is, what can Jews outside Israel offer by way of Jewish identity to someone who doesn't keep Torah and mitzvos?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 10:34 pm
amother wrote:
It helps to understand that the article is in response to Anshel Pfeffer, who lives in Israel, where non-Orthodox movements don't have state support. Pfeffer would like to see a place for liberal movements and weaken the rabbanut (which, ironically, has been taken over by charedim) so filling non-Orthodox shuls with ex-charedim seems to him like a good idea. I think he's indulging in wishful thinking.

Israel offers a form of Jewish identity to ex-charedim, but that's not available outside of Israel. So I can see where someone in the US might go to a Conservative synagogue to find a community. In Israel, society as a whole recognizes shabbos and kashrus, even if the majority may not observe halacha.

I've heard variations on this question for years. If you leave Williamsburg, why not go to Teaneck? And the answer is that just because the externals are different, and there's more individual autonomy in Modern Orthodox communities, you still have the same core beliefs. If those beliefs are repugnant to you, wearing different clothes won't make a difference. If you left religion because you distrust authority, you're going to reject all authority.

The question is, what can Jews outside Israel offer by way of Jewish identity to someone who doesn't keep Torah and mitzvos?


Your question is better than my list of questions!

I am not sure if he is an alarmist or if the alarm that he is sounding is, as you say, wishful thinking, or if there is really going to be a mass migration from Orthodoxy, chas v' sholem.


Last edited by southernbubby on Mon, Dec 18 2017, 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Mint


 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 10:36 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Your question is better than my list of questions!


Thanks. It's a tough one.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 10:46 pm
amother wrote:
Thanks. It's a tough one.


The frum community, both in Israel and elsewhere, had better figure out a better way to appeal to the young and keep them involved. I don't see much outreach in the liberal movements and they certainly are not reaching out to the formerly frum.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 2:04 am
southernbubby wrote:
https://forward.com/scribe/390015/ex-haredim-cannot-save-liberal-judaism/

The article was written by an ex-Chabad Jew, who now attends a Conservative synagogue with his wife and kids.

The premise of the article is that liberal Jewish movements are failing and losing members and that ex-hareidim could breathe fresh air into them, however, the majority of those who went OTD, are not looking for a replacement religion and reject liberal Judaism as fake.

He ends up by saying that it is patronizing to assume that liberal Judaism needs the ex-hareidim but he believes that the ex-hareidim do need the liberal community.

Question #1: are those who go OTD better off in liberal Jewish communities or are they better off remaining unaffiliated?

Question#2: If you answer yes to question #1, how would you go about recruiting the ex-hereidim into liberal Judaism?

Question#3: Do you agree with the premise of the article that liberal Jewish groups have noting to gain from the ex-hereidim?

Question#4: Would those who go OTD and are using drugs or are otherwise in danger of being sucked into a destructive life be better off in liberal Judaism, even though those forms of Judaism do not promote the fact that the Torah was given by Hashem or that the mitzvahs have to be fulfilled?

Question#5: Are those movements really dying and should they be trying to recruit members, especially those who left Orthodoxy?

Guess what?? I have no answers or strong opinions on this and admit that I don't know all of the ins and outs of this situation. Halachically, I think, anyway, that there is the opinion that Judaism that isn't true to the Torah is worse than no Judaism at all. Psychologically, however, it may provide at least some tie to Judaism that would keep the person anchored in the Jewish community, increasing the possibility that they would someday return to the Torah way of life. So that brings up back to question #1.

I think it is far easier for Reform/Conservative organizations to bolster their dwindling numbers by appealing to the many non-Jewish spouses of their many intermarried members than to go chasing after the relatively smaller numbers of Jewishly educated but unaffiliated persons like ex-Charedim.

Such a person most likely either (1) knows that what Reform/Liberal movements have to offer is a sham, or (2) wants nothing to do with organized religion anyway.

So my answers are:

#1. Depends what they are looking for. Probably unaffiliated.
#2. Meh.
#3. No
#4. Are these the only two choices? Non-halachic variations of Judaism or drugs?
#5. I think the numbers of active members of these movements is declining, althogh they often expand their definition of membership in order to mask this fact. It's not my place to say whether they should actively recruit among ex-Charedom.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 4:01 am
I can't speak to the halachic ramifications of affiliating with a group that is not Torah-true.

Still, it seems to me that a little Judaism is better than no Judaism at all.
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BH5745




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 4:51 am
Sounds like a few people who fit into one category (OTD) doing their own thing, and then trying to universalize their decision (joining a movement that calls itself Jewish) to the masses of the first category (OTD).

People find legitimacy in numbers, so of course those who have are turning away from Hashem and joining largely non-Jewish movements want to "recruit" others to do as they are ch"vs.

Even if OTD people decide to associate with liberal "Jewish" movements, statistics show that within 1-3 generations the vast majority will be unaffiliated and/or won't be halachically Jewish ch"vs.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 8:13 am
amother wrote:


I've heard variations on this question for years. If you leave Williamsburg, why not go to Teaneck? And the answer is that just because the externals are different, and there's more individual autonomy in Modern Orthodox communities, you still have the same core beliefs. If those beliefs are repugnant to you, wearing different clothes won't make a difference. What if you move out of Orthodoxy altogether? That crosses the red line of belief, but If you left religion because you distrust authority, you're going to reject all authority.

The question is, what can Jews outside Israel offer by way of Jewish identity to someone who doesn't keep Torah and mitzvos?


Here's how I see things:

There are the OTD kids who act out, do drugs, etc. They're not having philosophical issues. They're in pain. They may have been abused, they may have seen hypocrisy. I suspect that by and large they're not like the author of the article who is in a safe place but calls himself an atheist, I assume because he's done some careful intellectual study. They just might not have seen Yiddishkeit at its healthiest, and been able to give it a real chance.

That's not who the article is talking about.

Simplistic as this is, I think the article is addressing two different but related categories. There are people who haven't seen Yiddishkeit at its best because they've seen hypocrisy and worse, in the name of religion, they have never been able to get their questions answered, they cannot stay in their communities and stay healthy. Here's where the two categories come in:
1. They leave Yiddishkeit. They don't believe at all, or if they do they don't feel that liberal streams offer substance, authenticity, and continuity.
2. They leave their communities. They make what I call lateral moves and stay within the tent. This could mean living in communities where their kids will go to BY, yeshivos, Torah Umesorah schools. Teaneck offers substance, authenticity, and continuity as well. (Maya, was this a trigger for you or are you reading this?)

If they will revitalize liberal streams at all, it will probably be more traditional Conservatism, because if they affiliate at all, because they want their kids to marry Jewish, they will know that's their best bet. This is my off the cuff analysis.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 8:35 am
Could it also be, that some OTD people still want the cultural aspects of being Jewish such as celebrating holidays and Bar or Bat Mitzvahs but they reject the authoritarian aspects of Judaism and want everything to be a matter of choice?

My grandparents generation rejected Orthodoxy and felt that Conservative Judaism was the answer because it was contemporary but still retained a bit of the original belief. In their generation, Conservative Judaism still had many Orthodox rabbonim associated with it and there was no egalitarianism. Conservative Judaism clearly and distinctly was different from Reform Judaism, even though they got together on communal issues. In that generation, the Conservative movement was largely made up of the former Orthodox, rather than the former Reform or non-affiliated.

Today, because of low birth rates in those movements, and the fact that the young of those movements are consumer oriented rather than community oriented (they want ala carte religious experiences rather than paying dues and belonging to a group), these groups are shrinking. The author of the article, however, sees a drop in the large Orthodox birthrate that will shrink the growth of Orthodoxy eventually, as well as the fact that he sees the young making a hasty exit.

In America, about half of all Jews are unaffiliated with any movement. 14% claim to be Reform, about 11% Conservative, and about 10% Orthodox.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 8:44 am
southernbubby wrote:
Could it also be, that some OTD people still want the cultural aspects of being Jewish such as celebrating holidays and Bar or Bat Mitzvahs but they reject the authoritarian aspects of Judaism and want everything to be a matter of choice?

My grandparents generation rejected Orthodoxy and felt that Conservative Judaism was the answer because it was contemporary but still retained a bit of the original belief. In their generation, Conservative Judaism still had many Orthodox rabbonim associated with it and there was no egalitarianism. Conservative Judaism clearly and distinctly was different from Reform Judaism, even though they got together on communal issues. In that generation, the Conservative movement was largely made up of the former Orthodox, rather than the former Reform or non-affiliated.

Today, because of low birth rates in those movements, and the fact that the young of those movements are consumer oriented rather than community oriented (they want ala carte religious experiences rather than paying dues and belonging to a group), these groups are shrinking. The author of the article, however, sees a drop in the large Orthodox birthrate that will shrink the growth of Orthodoxy eventually, as well as the fact that he sees the young making a hasty exit.

In America, about half of all Jews are unaffiliated with any movement. 14% claim to be Reform, about 11% Conservative, and about 10% Orthodox.


The Conservative Judaism of your grandparents' time was not what it's like now.
Try Secular Humanist Judaism for culture. Better yet, don't.
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return2You




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 9:25 am
I hate when people lump ex- hareidism, otd, call it what you want with drug abuse and degenerate lifestyles. Those are two completely seperste issues.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 9:27 am
They cannot even save themselves Sad
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 19 2017, 9:30 am
return2You wrote:
I hate when people lump ex- hareidism, otd, call it what you want with drug abuse and degenerate lifestyles. Those are two completely seperste issues.


I did not say that leaving the derech meant drug abuse but as the netflix movie stated, many end up on drugs or incarcerated. When people leave the derech and have no place to go, no job, no skills, no proper English, etc, the next step is sometimes street life and drugs. They are separate issues but one can lead to another. I am sure that there are plenty who went OTD and got advanced degrees in law or medicine and never touched drugs or went into degenerate lifestyles. I mentioned it because it sometimes happens.
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