Venezuela: socialism's utter failure

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 5:44 am

http://dailysignal.com/2017/12.....n0%3D

And some of those countries such as Costa Rica, lauded for having socialized medicine, actually only have great hospitals for those who can afford it and those who can't wait months or years for treatment and are made to use noisy, crowded hospital wards which is probably better than nothing sometimes. Cutting edge treatment is usually reserved for paying customers.

amother

Yellow

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 5:47 am

southernbubby wrote:

http://dailysignal.com/2017/12/20/new-york-times-left-socialisms-role-report-venezuelas-devastation/?utm_source=TDS_Email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MorningBell%22&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWlRVeVl6VTJORGxsTXpnMSIsInQiOiJ6SjE3UThBYjNXOENoTDl2QldYXC9KelprYTRcL2luWncwR1BjOVdkYVAxd1pXM3gzNFp6Rit1UmtNb3FqSzQ2UHFmSnJLYjVRaUVmM2ZaVGo5S0xZcHVodUdlcXRJUlwvRDVzSFwvK1U1YkFleWpUQ2xoekFjNFwvZXdzU01VMnBEMVdQIn0%3D

And some of those countries such as Costa Rica, lauded for having socialized medicine, actually only have great hospitals for those who can afford it and those who can't wait months or years for treatment and are made to use noisy, crowded hospital wards which is probably better than nothing sometimes. Cutting edge treatment is usually reserved for paying customers.

Yup. A poster in another thread wrote that in her country, after giving birth you're kicked out of the hospital within 12 hours. This is what rationing of care leads to

Ruchel

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 6:09 am

And yet socialism works in many countries, someof which Iwould move to if they had the kehilla I look for.

amother

Violet

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 6:10 am

Ruchel wrote:

And yet socialism works in many countries, someof which Iwould move to if they had the kehilla I look for.

Are you sure socialism works in some countries? Can you name one or two?

amother

Peach

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 6:40 am

amother wrote:

Are you sure socialism works in some countries? Can you name one or two?

Yes, of course. Israel for one. Totally socialized medicine, which I use all the time. I pay peanuts. I pay a few more peanuts for a few 'extras'. But even if I didn't pay the extra few shekels, I could still see my family doc as many times as I want, see most specialists as often as I want (ok, for dermatologists and gynos there is a few weeks' waiting period, but still).

My kids have had operations in the hospital for free. I gave birth for free. I have never had to debate taking a kid to the doctor because I couldn't afford it.

Sure, there is also private medicine for those with more money. But most people only turn to that for special cases or important operations where they want a very specific dr.

Education is almost free, unless you want a special school with more torani hours or more selective. My kids all went to the regular school and I was happy.

Also as far as I know Canada is socialist too and it works out fine, certainly better than things are going elsewhere.

amother

Tan

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 6:45 am

amother wrote:

Canada is not a socialist country. The provinces have socialized medicine.

Deep

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 7:15 am

The countries with the highest quality of life are largely socialized democracies. Norway. Finland, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands and Canada.

amother

Amber

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 7:16 am

Socialized medicine, and socialized economy, are two very different things.

Mommyg8

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 7:19 am

Deep wrote:

The countries with the highest quality of life are largely socialized democracies. Norway. Finland, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands and Canada.

All these countries have partially capitalist economies - just like the United States.

Deep

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 7:24 am

Socialism is essentially a spectrum. Democratic-socialism is vastly different than communist-socialism. Technically the US also has some socialist policies such as welfare and Medicaid.
Canada is more socialist due to its socialized medicine (the fact that it is administered at the provincial level is irrelevant), and government ownership of several major industries (electricity, alcohol....). The government also sets the price of specific staples such as bread and milk.

imasoftov

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 8:11 am

southernbubby, I'm curious if you're concerned that the US might become socialist and are posting this in an attempt to prevent readers of this site from voting in a way that would lead to that.

Ruchel

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 8:24 am

amother wrote:

Are you sure socialism works in some countries? Can you name one or two?

Didn't I just say I am sure and I can name more than one or two?
You being anon makes me think you might be looking to pick up a fight and/or mixing it up with commies, so Iwill not.

amother

Tan

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 9:09 am

Deep wrote:

If we are going to define socialism as a spectrum then the USA is also socialist. communist-socialism is a thing. Communism and Socialism are different ideologies.

Canadian government does not set the price of milk or bread to the end user who purchases it. Funny actually, major newstory right now - major grocery stores (not government owned) are being accused of price fixing - violating the Competition Act.

The US has this great policy that low income women and children are given milk for free. And US dairy farmers may receive significant government subsidy.

No free government milk in Canada.

amother

Peach

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 9:24 am

Bread milk and other staples also have set prices to the end consumer in Israel.

Fox

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 10:50 am

Socialism is basically family life writ large, with the government acting as parents and the citizens acting as children.

As with families, if the parents are caring, smart, judicious, and fair -- then the children's needs will be be provided for as much as possible. If the parents are none of those things or are incompetent in other ways, the dysfunction will be felt for generations.

Also, as with families, socialism works best with a small, homogeneous population that shares a common culture and similar values.

Up-thread, Deep mentioned several Scandanavian countries with high levels of socialist policy. But these countries are relatively small: Sweden has less than half the population of metropolitan NY, and Norway has less than the population of metropolitan Chicago. As immigration has led to greater cultural diversity, socialism isn't working as well -- Sweden just had to raise the age of retirement.

Culture is a significant factor, too, in whether socialism is a good fit. Cultures that value conformity tend to do better with socialism than cultures that value individuality. The late economist Milton Friedman was once told condescendingly by a Swedish economist that, "We have no poverty in Scandanavia." He replied, "We have no poverty in America among Scandanavians."

The biggest problem with socialism, however, is that it must piggyback on capitalism in order to benefit from innovation. In other words, the only reason a comparatively socialist country can succeed is because other countries are less socialistic.

Socialized medicine in Israel is always used as an example, so let's use that. Israel is at the forefront of innovation in pharmaceuticals and medical technology. But no one is investing in, say, Teva Pharmaceuticals in order to serve the 8 million people in Israel. The value of the company is in the fact that they sell drugs to the profitable U.S. market.

My DH takes a drug made by Teva to treat Kleine-Levin Syndrome, a neurological/sleep disorder. Out-of-pocket, the cost is $20 per pill, and the dosage is one pill per day. For many years, our insurance did not cover it. I don't know what our current insurance company pays for the drug. However, the fact that capitalist-based markets exist for this drug makes it worthwhile for Teva to do the research, development, and marketing. That drug now exists -- even at a sometimes high price -- where it otherwise would not.

No reasonable person believes in a pure free market economy. Even the most stalwart libertarian wants to know that the FDA is on the job and that child labor laws are being enforced. But likewise, no one who actually paid attention in Macroeconomics believes that the indiscriminate application of socialism will result in a better world.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 11:29 am

imasoftov wrote:

southernbubby, I'm curious if you're concerned that the US might become socialist and are posting this in an attempt to prevent readers of this site from voting in a way that would lead to that.

After I read an article in the National Geographic about happiness and 3 socialist countries were named, Denmark, Costa Rica, and Singapore, I decided to do a little research so I chose Costa Rica. It isn't all beautiful birds and paradise, even though their lifespan tops ours.

I am not sure that socialized medicine would would out well here and have read that it is crumbling in places like Japan due to heavy demand for expensive procedures. Canada is known for long waits for elective surgery, which can include cancer surgery.

Yet, if we don't do something, we will soon have millions more without any medical care and that also costs the taxpayer something.

We certainly wouldn't want a socialist government like Venezuela.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

Bread milk and other staples also have set prices to the end consumer in Israel.

I thought that ended years ago.

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 22 2017, 2:26 am

Socialism isn't communism. You're not waiting in line for one brand of bread or months for urgent surgery.

imasoftov

Fri, Dec 22 2017, 2:31 am

southernbubby wrote:

I'd like to recommend the Healthcare Triage channel on YouTube, there are episodes discussing how healthcare works in many different countries.

https://www.youtube.com/channe.....MT4Kw

imasoftov

Fri, Dec 22 2017, 2:43 am

southernbubby wrote:

I thought that ended years ago.

I found this, from earlier this year http://www.globes.co.il/en/art.....01037

"The list of items on which the government imposes price controls includes only 22 products, including bread, eggs, milk and dairy products, hard cheese, and salt."

I think that's only specific items in these categories, there can be fancier versions at higher cost.