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S/O Do you (not) view modern orthodox as part of orthodoxy?
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MyUsername




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 4:07 pm
So I was somewhat surprised to see in a different thread (on Open Orthodoxy), that there are people who don't view Modern Orthodoxy as part of Orthodox Judaism. I have a 2-part question on that:

If you feel that MO is not part of orthodoxy: What do you define as MO? Why do you think it isn't part of orthodoxy?

I'm not asking to start a fight, I'm just wondering where people draw the line as to what is orthodoxy. I've always secretly wondered if those on the far right of the orthodox spectrum secretly see MO the way MO sees conservative or reform, but never heard anyone say so.

All info appreciated, please keep it civil Smile
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 4:42 pm
MyUsername wrote:
So I was somewhat surprised to see in a different thread (on Open Orthodoxy), that there are people who don't view Modern Orthodoxy as part of Orthodox Judaism. I have a 2-part question on that:

If you feel that MO is not part of orthodoxy: What do you define as MO? Why do you think it isn't part of orthodoxy?

I'm not asking to start a fight, I'm just wondering where people draw the line as to what is orthodoxy. I've always secretly wondered if those on the far right of the orthodox spectrum secretly see MO the way MO sees conservative or reform, but never heard anyone say so.

All info appreciated, please keep it civil Smile


There's no anon posting here, so you might get less traffic on this thread than you could.
I don't see MO as a valid path...I spoke about this on another thread and don't really have enough energy right now to elaborate....things have been stressful on my end.

Hopefully others can.
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 4:58 pm
I'm disgusted that this is even a subject for debate.
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someone




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 5:20 pm
So I have a question for LovesHashem and anyone else with similar opinions. When you say MO, what do you mean? Do you mean people you have met whose religious practices you may not agree with and who identify themselves as MO, or do you mean the concept of MO as its founders described it. Say, the way Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch saw it (Torah Im Derech Eretz), or the way Rav Soloveitchik saw it (Torah U'Mada)?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 5:47 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
There's no anon posting here, so you might get less traffic on this thread than you could.
I don't see MO as a valid path...I spoke about this on another thread and don't really have enough energy right now to elaborate....things have been stressful on my end.

Hopefully others can.
I think you were one of the most vocal on that other thread about saying that MO was not a valid path.

Its a real shame that there aer frum jews that feel that other FRUM jews are living not valid paths of life. A real shame.
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Tzutzie




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 6:12 pm
I was always taught (by my ultra chassidish and very machmir-for-himself father) any jew who keeps shabbos, kashrus and TH is orthodox.
Now the "path" and the flavor... there are shivim panim latorah.
There is no ultimate way.
And at the same time there are minhagim and the derech of your parents....
So yes, any jew who keeps shabbos kashrus and TH is orthodox in my book. That includes MO of course!
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 6:34 pm
Orthodox means you keep shabbos, yom tov, kosher, and taharas hamishpacha. That is the LITERAL definition of what orthodox means. Anyone who says different doesn’t really know what they are talking about.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 6:45 pm
I consider any branch of Judaism that believes in the 13 Ikerim and that they are bound by Halacah to be Orthodox.

The following story from RYBS that I saw in The Jewish Action has always made a deep impression on me and my attitude towards other Yiden.

He used to give money to the Eidah Hachredis. He once sent their representative (R' Yosef Sheinberger) to collect from someone. That person asked him how can you collect from me given our haskafic differences? RY"S answered RYBS sent me to you. Incredulous the person called RYBS to ask about it.

RYBS answered. Torah M'Sinai they believe in? Shabbos they keep? Only kosher they eat? So how could there be a question of not giving them money?
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 6:55 pm
MyUsername wrote:
So I was somewhat surprised to see in a different thread (on Open Orthodoxy), that there are people who don't view Modern Orthodoxy as part of Orthodox Judaism. I have a 2-part question on that:

If you feel that MO is not part of orthodoxy: What do you define as MO? Why do you think it isn't part of orthodoxy?

I'm not asking to start a fight, I'm just wondering where people draw the line as to what is orthodoxy. I've always secretly wondered if those on the far right of the orthodox spectrum secretly see MO the way MO sees conservative or reform, but never heard anyone say so.

All info appreciated, please keep it civil Smile


What I've come to learn on Ima, is that the distinct minority can be a lot more vocal in their expression that itis easy to get a false picture.

I've said this on other threads. I will say it again. To bring some voice to the quite majority:
MO is as much a stream of Orthodox Judaism as Chassidus and Litvish. I say this as a Chassidish woman, who always knew and knows that Orthodoxy is keeping of TH, Kosher, and Shabbos.

You can argue that some feel *their* path is "better" or any other adjective. But that with all streams. Some MO think that chareidi has too many rules etc. This also exists between Litvish and chassidish etc. But Orthodox? All the wonderful MO posters are just as part of Orthodox Judaism as anybody else.

Please, don't let the minority fool you.

Ladies, like this post if you agree. We've got to let our voices be heard!
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 7:01 pm
MO women can join Imamother, so they must be Orthodox!

Seriously, they keep kosher, Shabbos, and TH, and believe in Torah & Mitzvos, They're not trying to change halacha even they interpret it differently than I do, so yes, I consider them Orthodox.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 7:05 pm
To me a shomer Torah Umitzvos is one who believes in Hashem. Believes the whole Torah comes from Him and attempts to keep all of it to the best of their knowledge and ability.
The cut-off in keeping it is basic Shabbos deoraysa (refraining from 39 avos melachos) Kashrus and Taharas Hamishpacha (no s*x until mikva trying to do more).
More is better up until what your rav and your community holds.
But I can never say that a woman who doesnt wear a skirt or cover her hair is not Orthodox.
The Chafetz Chaim used to say Shabbos was the Os the sign whether youre in or out.
(In my understanding some RW rabbanim have a problem with strains of OO who started claiming the Torah is divinely inspired.)
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 7:07 pm
Rubber Ducky wrote:
MO women can join Imamother, so they must be Orthodox!

Seriously, they keep kosher, Shabbos, and TH, and believe in Torah & Mitzvos, They're not trying to change halacha even they interpret it differently than I do, so yes, I consider them Orthodox.


Short sweet to the point and very clear. Liking this was not enough.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 7:22 pm
I’m confused as to why this is even a question.
Ladies, come on!!
The Torah was not given to you and your derech alone.
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mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 8:04 pm
Rubber Ducky wrote:
MO women can join Imamother, so they must be Orthodox!

Seriously, they keep kosher, Shabbos, and TH, and believe in Torah & Mitzvos, They're not trying to change halacha even they interpret it differently than I do, so yes, I consider them Orthodox.


There are a group of people who call themselves "Modern Orthodox" but really are Conservadox, and that's where the confusion lies. To their credit, these Conservadox Jews will only pray in an Orthodox shul (and not Conservative or Open Orthodox)
1. Keep Kosher at home, but will eat dairy and vegetarian in treif restaurants
2. Keep Shabbos (won't drive on Shabbos)
3. Keep TH to varying degrees (as one friend explained, "It's between a woman and her husband, not the community")
4. Believe in Torah and some of the Mitzvos, meaning that using a cell phone on Shabbos is okay since it doesn't say specifically it's assur in the Torah
5. Davening on Shabbos is what counts the most. Davening during the week is optional, unless you have to say Kaddish.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 8:14 pm
Im going to throw something out there and im wondering if im right. I wonder if theres a difference in mentality betweenAmerican and Israeli RW posters. Some of my israeli relatives seem to have a very black and white mentality of only my derech is valid.
And the American counterparts seem a lot more accepting. Is this a cultural thing?
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pesek zman




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 8:29 pm
mirror wrote:
There are a group of people who call themselves "Modern Orthodox" but really are Conservadox, and that's where the confusion lies. To their credit, these Conservadox Jews will only pray in an Orthodox shul (and not Conservative or Open Orthodox)
1. Keep Kosher at home, but will eat dairy and vegetarian in treif restaurants
2. Keep Shabbos (won't drive on Shabbos)
3. Keep TH to varying degrees (as one friend explained, "It's between a woman and her husband, not the community")
4. Believe in Torah and some of the Mitzvos, meaning that using a cell phone on Shabbos is okay since it doesn't say specifically it's assur in the Torah
5. Davening on Shabbos is what counts the most. Davening during the week is optional, unless you have to say Kaddish.


I've heard this called Flexi-dox
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 8:39 pm
keym wrote:
Im going to throw something out there and im wondering if im right. I wonder if theres a difference in mentality betweenAmerican and Israeli RW posters. Some of my israeli relatives seem to have a very black and white mentality of only my derech is valid.
And the American counterparts seem a lot more accepting. Is this a cultural thing?


Yes. LovesHashem is a perfect example of this.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:00 pm
leah233 wrote:
I consider any branch of Judaism that believes in the 13 Ikerim and that they are bound by Halacah to be Orthodox.

The following story from RYBS that I saw in The Jewish Action has always made a deep impression on me and my attitude towards other Yiden.

He used to give money to the Eidah Hachredis. He once sent their representative (R' Yosef Sheinberger) to collect from someone. That person asked him how can you collect from me given our haskafic differences? RY"S answered RYBS sent me to you. Incredulous the person called RYBS to ask about it.

RYBS answered. Torah M'Sinai they believe in? Shabbos they keep? Only kosher they eat? So how could there be a question of not giving them money?

The bolded.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:44 pm
MyUsername wrote:
So I was somewhat surprised to see in a different thread (on Open Orthodoxy), that there are people who don't view Modern Orthodoxy as part of Orthodox Judaism. I have a 2-part question on that:

If you feel that MO is not part of orthodoxy: What do you define as MO? Why do you think it isn't part of orthodoxy?

I'm not asking to start a fight, I'm just wondering where people draw the line as to what is orthodoxy. I've always secretly wondered if those on the far right of the orthodox spectrum secretly see MO the way MO sees conservative or reform, but never heard anyone say so.

All info appreciated, please keep it civil Smile


Chas v'shalom!!!!!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 23 2017, 9:48 pm
leah233 wrote:
I consider any branch of Judaism that believes in the 13 Ikerim and that they are bound by Halacah to be Orthodox.

The following story from RYBS that I saw in The Jewish Action has always made a deep impression on me and my attitude towards other Yiden.

He used to give money to the Eidah Hachredis. He once sent their representative (R' Yosef Sheinberger) to collect from someone. That person asked him how can you collect from me given our haskafic differences? RY"S answered RYBS sent me to you. Incredulous the person called RYBS to ask about it.

RYBS answered. Torah M'Sinai they believe in? Shabbos they keep? Only kosher they eat? So how could there be a question of not giving them money?


There's a story that goes something along these lines.
About 60 or so years ago, there was a frum representative of some Zionist organization speaking in Baltimore. While he was there, he stayed at the home of Rav Ruderman, zt"l, RY of Ner Israel. He spoke at some forum where most of the attendees were pro-Israel but not frum, and they asked the speaker how he could stay at the RY's. He answered, he and I differ on just one thing, about the medina. But you [the audience] and I disagree on just about everything else Jewishly.
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