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Is it true that Orthodoxy has never changed?



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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:05 am
Something that Avigayils said over here got me thinking about changes in Yiddishkeit over time.

I once saw the following posted on another message board:

Quote:
Orthodoxy has never changed. Were Yiftach, Hoshea, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, , all ten of Rav Papa's children, Ramban, and the Maggid of Mezeritch to walk into the right sort of shul (or yeshiva, or beit din) today they would feel right at home and the first words out of their mouths would be "It's so gratifying to see that everything is just as it was in my time". And it would be the same shul for all of them.


What do you think? Would you agree with this statement? If not, just how much trouble do you think each of the examples would have in recognizing the Judaism of the others (or of ours today)?

And, please, let's try to keep this civil. No name calling, no "I'm surprised to see that a frum woman would say that, " no "you're so naive as to believe that," and the like. I just want to see what people think.

Tammy
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:13 am
I think that it is a given that the seder of davening has evolved over time and is not the same as it was in the times of the shoftim or yehuda hanasi.
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:58 am
If those guys aren't wearing black suits and a hat, no one will give them an aliya......
They won't be considered Jewish, or frum enough.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 12:07 pm
They'd be wearing the equivalent of it in their times. and I imagine it could be instantaneously updated with the current Yidddishe levush, like our imamother profiles do with each new post... Tongue Out

After all, when Eliyahu HaNavi makes his appearances he blends in with the scene at hand....
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 12:18 pm
Rashi and Rabbenu Tam argued about the parshios of the Tefillin. Well, you'd imagine that if we could find tefillin from earlier times, we'd find out who was "right".

Guess what, in Masada, ancient pairs of tefillin were found, and some were according to Rashi's shittah, and some according to Rabbenu Tam!

Ditto for the ancient mikvaos found there, they are the same as today's,( inclusive of all the shittos)!!

This is an illustration how the halacha remained the same, and did NOT change. How Yiddishkeit as it was practiced then, is practised now, and vice versa.
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rosehill




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 5:30 pm
That's an interesting quote, Tammy. I once walked into a Sfardi shul (not Nusach sfard, I suppose it was edot hamizrach), and I had no clue what was going on!! So I wonder which whether a Sfardi or Ashkenazi would be more familiar to an orthodox Jew of 1000, 2000 or 3000 years ago.
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 8:08 pm
I would say it would depend on what we are referring too. The basic halachic are the same, we still cannot light a fire on shabbos, have to keep taharas haMishpacha, and shecht animals across the neck.

However, within those principles, halacha is able to adapt to the times, some examples:

1. Shabbos- Yes, we still have the same 39 melachos, but when times change we have to see where things fit in. Therefore, poskim looked at electricity and ruled that turning on a light is molid, boneh (according to the Chazon Ish), or if it gets hot enough it can even be considered lighting a fire. It is the same Torah, applied to new circumstances.

2. Taharas HaMishpacha- Yes, we still go to the same type of mikvah as the one discovered a massada (except, of course, somewhat nicer Smile ), but due to yeridas hadoros and the decreasing knowledge of the details of taharas hamishpacha among women (and even rabbanim), the chochomim decreed that all women must keep shiva nekiyim (when before a niddah didn't need to, only a zavah had to keep shiva nekiyim), and to disregard the principle of dam tahor (that some blood isn't actually dam niddah.

3. Shechita- We still shecht the same way, but the Shulchan Aruch Harav instituted using a stainless steel knife (I think) instead of an iron knife (BTW this is now the minhag for everyone), since it made a sharper cut, making shechita more mehudar.

If Moshe Rabbeinu were to come and see us today, he would see many differences to do the changing times, but would be so proud of his nation that they took such good care of his Torah throughout the golus. He would have tears in his eyes as he watched small children say "Torah tziva lanu Moshe" and when he sees Jews of all ages be as careful with mitzvos derabbanan as mitzvos D'oraisa.

He would know that he left his people in good hands, in the hands of our chochomim
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faigie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 24 2007, 9:45 pm
I remember that I once read somewhere, that in the anceint days they didnt have two sets of plates! ( for basar and chalav) I was very shocked to hear this.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 3:57 am
TammyTammy wrote:

Quote:
Orthodoxy has never changed. Were Yiftach, Hoshea, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, , all ten of Rav Papa's children, Ramban, and the Maggid of Mezeritch to walk into the right sort of shul (or yeshiva, or beit din) today they would feel right at home and the first words out of their mouths would be "It's so gratifying to see that everything is just as it was in my time". And it would be the same shul for all of them.


What do you think? Would you agree with this statement? If not, just how much trouble do you think each of the examples would have in recognizing the Judaism of the others (or of ours today)?



I am amazed that someone could write such a ridiculous statement. Do they nothing about the development of tefilla?

Until the time of the Anshei Knesses Hagedola people davenned in their own words (of course they said Shema, but that is not actually davenning, but the mitzva of Krias Shema). There is a halachic structure to prayer - shevach, bakasha, hodayah - praise, requesting and thanking. But everyone said their own words within this framework. Of course, there are also some very ancient tefillos like Aleinu that was composed by Yehoshua and of course, Sefer Tehillim.

During the time of the Anshei Knesses Hagedola (Men of the Great Assembly) people were already not capable of including everything in their tefillos, and so a fixed nusach including all the kavanos (intentions) we should have, was written by them. The nineteenth bracha, ulemalshinim, was added by Shmuel Hakatan. Some of the tefillos, piyutim etc in our siddur and machzor are of much later origin.

This is a good example of how halacha has changed. Obviously the basic halachas (kriyas Shema and saying shevach, bakasha and hodaya as a tefilla) have always been kept - by Yiftach as well. But Chazal and the rabbonim over the generations have added more structure/ fences etc because the later generations have gradually become on a lower level.

Another example is that the nevi'im (prophets) already saw how people turned Shabbos into 'just another day' by buying and selling, so they prohibited trading on Shabbos. Presumably earlier generations either wouldn't have dreamed on spending Shabbos going shopping, or they did it in a way that didn't affect the kedusha (sanctity) of Shabbos.

If you look at the halachas of the Three Weeks you will see that they have gradually had more and more prohibitions added, because each generation has become less sensitive to the Churban (destruction of the Temple) and so needs more reminders.

I heard an explanation once of why Hashem gave us the Torah with its mitzvos, while other mitzvos are miderabanan. The rabbinic laws are ones which are not appropriate for all of history, and so Hashem empowered the sages of each generation to see what is appropriate for them. They did not originally apply and, in theory if we had as great a Sanhedrin (which we don't) they could be revoked at a later time. Actually there have been takkanos that did apply at one time and no longer do, such as Megillas Taanis that fixed lots more fast days and Takanas Ezra.

Of course halachically the rabbinic halachos have the same status as Torah laws because of the mitzva of 'lo tasur'. The only practical difference is for halachic issues, such as what takes precedence.
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catonmylap




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 6:49 am
There's the famous gemara of Moshe listening in on the Beit medrash of Rabbi Akiva and he couldn't understand anything.

I think they would find vast changes across the board.

In my shul, I think the first shocker would be the number of women in attendance.


We have trouble following what is going on in sephardi shuls, especially yeminite ones that are so different than what we are used to, of course they would be confused by what are doing on so many levels.
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baba




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 6:54 am
catonmylap wrote:
There's the famous gemara of Moshe listening in on the Beit medrash of Rabbi Akiva and he couldn't understand anything.

This thread also made me think of this!
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NotInNJMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 6:59 am
re: moshe not understanding

I heard an explanation that Moshe Rabbeinu was given halachah in general terms. It was for the later generations to establish the pratim.

so only in later generations, were these general rules codified specifically. This did not mean that for example, re: tefillin only 1 out of Rebbeinu Tam, Rashi, etc. were "right"...there was a klal regarding tefillin, only later was it specified which would be the halachah. In their times, both were right. They wore the tefillin their fathers, grandfathers', etc. wore. Remember, they are not like us, so we can't compare our individual family's minhagim to the fact that they had their "types" of tefillin. These were people who were tzaddikim and could trace their roots back to matan torah...or pretty close and who were talmud chochamim.

Also given this, going back to Rashi, Rabbeinu tam, even moshe rabbeinu....different tribes, families, etc were doing all kinds of things differently in the beginning bc yidden could function with klalim(or klalos?--sorry don't know hebrew so well) instead of the pratim of halachah.

I don't think they'd be phased int he least. I think that legitimate torah behavior would be recognized by these yirei shemayim.
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