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Endless tantrums :(
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 12:39 am
The drawback of the DOE eval was that they straight out lied about doing a classroom observation, they never did go in and see how she does in a busy environment which could be why the teachers see some slower processing and the evaluator didn't. But at home she is the least distractible person in the family. She doesn't forget or space out. Sometimes she'll go do her own thing instead but it's not because she has an attention issue.
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amother




Brunette
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 1:02 am
The original post sounds almost exactly like my daughter, around the same age- I could have written it. It’s actually scary; I was wondering if my husband wrote it!

Seriously, you have my empathy.

I have to read The Explosive Child, and am convinced that she has ODD.

What works for me is rediculous amounts of positive reinforcement and praise when she deserves it. Then reward systems with relatively instant gratification, so she feels accomplished, and can establish good habits. When she’s in her zone, I never give in- but I tr6 to avoid the tantrum at all costs, and have gotten pretty good (BH) at preventative measures.

She has fallen asleep in her tantrums many times over the years, and I have had plenty of physical battle wounds Sad She used to go on for 3 hrs if we’d ignore her.

But I feel like we’re on our way out... at least I hope. We’re going to ask the ped for a referral to a good parent8g class for kids with ODD.

Know that you’re not alone, no matter how bizarre this situation is!
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 1:53 am
How do you feel you're on the way out?

I give her lots of positive reinforcement and praise at all times. Even when she's in middle of a tantrum, I'll pick on any sign of hope - OH GOOD I SEE YOU TOOK A BREATH, NOW CAN YOU BREATHE AGAIN?! Once or twice I was able to avert a tantrum about to happen by saying "and now you're going to go ahead and ____ anyway and I'm going to write a mitzvah note telling Morah what a big girl you are that you didn't cry." Doesn't always work but it's something that got lucky. Less successful is complimenting her sibling on something I want her to do - instead of copying sibling's behavior to try to get in on the compliment/reward, she just goes berserk at the fact that sibling got and she didn't.

I didn't think of this as a possible sign of ODD. It's painful to think that way when MOST of the time this DD is the sweetest thing. I'll look into it just in case because we definitely do have a situation here. DH likes to compare parenting her to negotiating with terrorists, and I've come around to seeing his point there.
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 2:06 am
Also, I haven't read the explosive child but I'm in middle of reading the strong-willed child and have read other more general parenting books too. So far the main idea seems to be about consistent, concrete limits. That's what I expected but I was hoping for more guidance on that. So far what I've read sounds like a walk in the park compared to my life. Mom tells Johnny he can't fill up the water gun in the house. Johnny tests that limit. Mom takes away the water gun and says he can have it back tomorrow if he can keep it outside. Mom has shown him who's boss. Are you kidding me? If I tried that on DD, she'd test the limit by bringing the water gun inside, but the second she sees me coming anywhere near she will throw herself over the water gun and wrap every bone of her body around it and start howling. I will firmly remind her of the rule, using voice and body language to radiate firmness. I tell her (worked better for other kids) that if she gives it to me right away then she may have it back tomorrow, but if she does not give it right away then whenever I do get it she's not getting it back for a week. No effect whatsoever. I need to somehow show her that I mean business, right? What am I supposed to do? I can try to physically wrest it from her grip. First of all, I really don't want my parenting to turn into a physical match. That's so not what I believe in and I don't believe it will work in the long run, physical force is just not worth much in parenting beyond toddlerhood at most. Secondly, her grip is SO strong that this would be a real ugly battle. Alternatively, I could up the ante - give me the water gun or you're in time out. But then we have the same issue. She will refuse to go to time out. I have to physically drag her. She's large for her age and knows all the right angles to thrash around and flop over limp and everything that makes it difficult to drag her, and again I hate the whole physical struggle thing.

And in any case, I think any message the consequence was trying to send is lost in all the drama. I had this to a lesser extent with another child and found the same thing, when there was that level of escalation then nothing was gained at all by any time outs or consequences or anything. But the strategies that worked for that child are not helping for this one. The other child also had other things going on including major sensory issues that were worked on by OT at the same time so could be many things helped her calm down.
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amother




Green
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 5:44 pm
My kid started having meltdowns like that when he was 4.5. He was the sweetest kid, but if something set him off, he would go from 0-100 in seconds, rage on and on for hours, with aggression. There was no reasoning with him, no amount of threats or bribes or tight calming hugs or time outs or even spanking would snap him out of it. We would just have to let it run its course Then when he was spent he would suddenly calm down, be sweet again, lay his head on my shoulder and fall asleep. This came along with a lot of behaviors that looked very much like ODD. It turned out to be PANDAS. Now that we know what it is, we know how to stop these kinds of meltdowns in its tracks. Since starting treatment they have also significantly lessened in frequency. It was easy for us to catch, because we it was a change in personality, he was not always like that. But do not think that just because your child was always like that, this could not be the case for you. I think you should seriously look into PANDAS or PANS as a cause. Most abnormal behaviors have a biological cause.
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 7:10 pm
Does your child know you are distressed by the tantrum? Giving her attention while she is tantruming may be giving her that message. Just a thought.

Also, have you ever given in eventually?

If you tiptoe around her I think it can make it worse. (Trying too hard to avoid tantrums)
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amother




Orange
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 8:38 pm
op I feel for you. I have a dd who is also a sweetheart usually but when she melts down... oy!
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creditcards




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 9:12 pm
My son has meltdowns. Not as severe as yours. He is 3. Sometimes when he cries for a long time, I go to a sibling and tell her. If you make him happy you get a treat. He doesn't know about it of course. At that point he doesn't even remember why he is crying. But it's the cutest thing to watch my 6 year old go over to him and ask him if he wants a prize from her. I leave the room and leave them to their own devices. She has managed to stop his tantrum plenty of times. For some reason if it's not the mother it works better. My cleaning lady also managed to stop his tantrum sometimes.
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amother




Gray
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 10:13 pm
The thought of PANDAS crossed my mind but not only has it been forever while PANDAS is known for sudden onset, but also it fits with her whole personality so much that it seems more like an "explosive child" kind of profile. The difficulty switching gears and all. Yes, I started reading up about explosive child (didn't get the actual book yet but there are things about it online) and it does sound about right.

When she was younger, older sibling used to voluntarily look for ways to calm her down. Giving her stickers or the like. It was the sweetest thing, often worked, but worried me a little that it wasn't really solving the problem. But anyway as she got older she is now harder to distract like that, plus older sibling is now very annoyed and frustrated and not that interested in that role. There's more sibling rivalry in general now that it's not just the cute little toddler sister who needs to be calmed down from a tantrum. Not to mention that it would probably be counterproductive in trying not to make her a spoiled brat.
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amother




Brunette
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 11:54 pm
Yes, ODD absolutely can exist when it only is expressed at home to a parent. And our daughters sound very similar- charming, sweet, helpful, adorable- until something at some point ticks her off, almost always in the confines of our own home.

We’ve actually figured out that she is better contained in her episodes with me than my husband, since my take is much more matter-of-fact. I don’t mind waiting out the situation until it ends, without her getting the reiculous thing she NEEDS (ex. To eat something but she doesn’t want anything we have, or she she doesn’t want to wear her socks but her feet are cold...) My husband patchkies her more, and she winds up giving him much more tantruming time. I think the consistency is key, and keeping calm.

When I remind myself that she has a condition,and it’s not just her being stubborn/rude, it enables me to have much more patience and understanding about letting her get through her frustrations, rather than me lashing out or feeding her fire.

She knows I mean business. But in the end, most often (as may happen with you,) she winds up at some point recalibrated, sometimes calmly on my lap or coloring at the table.

It’s all much easier said than done though...
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amother




Brunette
 

Post  Wed, Jan 03 2018, 11:57 pm
And ditto on the siblings thing... I feel so bed for the bigger little guy who has to put up and suffer with this.

I’ve actually told him that when she’s like that, it’s like she’s sick- so not to take it personally...
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Jan 04 2018, 3:51 am
amother wrote:
Yes, ODD absolutely can exist when it only is expressed at home to a parent. And our daughters sound very similar- charming, sweet, helpful, adorable- until something at some point ticks her off, almost always in the confines of our own home.

We’ve actually figured out that she is better contained in her episodes with me than my husband, since my take is much more matter-of-fact. I don’t mind waiting out the situation until it ends, without her getting the reiculous thing she NEEDS (ex. To eat something but she doesn’t want anything we have, or she she doesn’t want to wear her socks but her feet are cold...) My husband patchkies her more, and she winds up giving him much more tantruming time. I think the consistency is key, and keeping calm.

When I remind myself that she has a condition,and it’s not just her being stubborn/rude, it enables me to have much more patience and understanding about letting her get through her frustrations, rather than me lashing out or feeding her fire.

She knows I mean business. But in the end, most often (as may happen with you,) she winds up at some point recalibrated, sometimes calmly on my lap or coloring at the table.

It’s all much easier said than done though...


YES to all of this. I used to babysit my friend's ODD toddler, and that child was just impossible! She would try the patience of a tzaddik. She always did well in gan, had lots of friends, the teachers loved her because she was so smart and enthusiastic - but once she got home, all bets were off. She was an expert button pusher, boundary pusher, and all around terror.

She absolutely hated it when I came over, because I was calm and centered with her, and let her tantrum to her heart's content. (Easy for me to do, because she was not my kid, and I got to go home at the end of the day.) I remember when she was 2, I came over for Shabbos lunch, and she looked at me and yelled "No! You go away! Don't like you!" That still cracks me up.

Honestly, I felt bad for her, because I think she wanted to be good, but her brain wouldn't let her. She was constantly fighting with herself, as well as everyone around her. ODD is such a strange thing.
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amother




Blue
 

Post  Thu, Jan 04 2018, 5:00 pm
OP, I wish I had practical answers to your question. One of my children was like yours until 4. Then we had a 'good year,' until we made aliyah when the child turned 5. This child had coping issues, what with the new language, culture and environment. We went through several VERY difficult months of endless tantrums... and worse! But once dear child learned Hebrew well enough to speak with other kids and got used to the new environment, the behavioral issues and tantrums gradually wore off, and by a year later were 90% better.

What I learned is sometimes there is no (known) solution to a child's instability. My mother told me I was also a difficult child at that age, and at some point grew out of this behavior. I think the best thing for those with us with children who go nuts and freak out every time they don't get what they want is to give that child love and acceptance, but not let them and their out of control behavior become the focus of our attention. Also distraction ("Would you like a cookie?" or "Let's watch a video") only enables the behavior. It teaches children they get a reward for out of control behavior.
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amother




Green
 

Post  Thu, Jan 04 2018, 5:04 pm
amother wrote:
The thought of PANDAS crossed my mind but not only has it been forever while PANDAS is known for sudden onset, but also it fits with her whole personality so much that it seems more like an "explosive child" kind of profile. The difficulty switching gears and all. Yes, I started reading up about explosive child (didn't get the actual book yet but there are things about it online) and it does sound about right.

When she was younger, older sibling used to voluntarily look for ways to calm her down. Giving her stickers or the like. It was the sweetest thing, often worked, but worried me a little that it wasn't really solving the problem. But anyway as she got older she is now harder to distract like that, plus older sibling is now very annoyed and frustrated and not that interested in that role. There's more sibling rivalry in general now that it's not just the cute little toddler sister who needs to be calmed down from a tantrum. Not to mention that it would probably be counterproductive in trying not to make her a spoiled brat.

The sudden onset clause of pandas is simply not true. Many, many people have had a slow decline into full-fledged pandas. Or, some had such early onset that they don't know how their kid was "before". If your kid is having terrible twos at the same time as his pandas onset, it's really, really hard to tell the difference. I'm only saying this because I learned the hard way that there is no such thing as an "explosive kid profile", without a cause. All abnormal behaviors have biological causes, explosive behavior included. And once the cause is addressed, the behaviors resolve. Either on their own, or the methods suddenly start working. Because their brain is no longer on fire.
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