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Mesivtas : How to choose?
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jayne




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 6:21 am
I would love guidance on choosing a high school for my eighth grader. He attends a very yeshivish school in Monsey. He's a A++ student. He also loves to follow sports (on the radio) and play sports games on the computer (no internet for him). Any guidance?
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brooklyn




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 6:27 am
We would need some more info. Where do you live? What kind of people are you? Do you mind an out of town school? etc.
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jayne




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 8:29 am
We are leaning toward out-of-town. Our family follows the yeshivish/Bais Yaakov mesorah (no TV, internet for adults only). We are the type of BTs who always hear, "I can't believe you're not FFBf!" What else do you need to know? And, thanks for the much-needed advice.
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catonmylap




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 9:06 am
I'm far from that point in my life so I may be off here.

I would be very careful to check into the general studies at the yeshiva in question to make sure they will get enough of an education that they can go to college if they want to. (Even if you are not so into college, I think it is a shame to close doors).

I would check out how much they supervise the boys.


I once was in WITs in Milwaukee (when my dh interviewed for a job, not at WITs), and I was very impressed with the school.

I would consider the idea of a local yeshiva and the pros to your son seeing your marriage at work etc, relating to his sisters, having a basic understanding of what girls are. I think it is a bit unnatural for boys to miss out on that by being away from home, but you have to see what is best for this particular child and what options you have locally vs away from home. That being said, I would definitely send him away if there is no local option that suits him.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 11:02 am
I am also a BT who most people don't realize and have become integrated totally into our frum community. I have 65 boyd in or after yeshiva katana.

The criterion I used are as follows.

1. The hashkafa of the yeshiva must represent as closely as possible the hashkafa of the home. I had to make compromises for one year for a child in special ed and we had non stop problems as he questioned our ways and my other boys wanted to know why things were different in his yeshiva.

2. Get the amt of limudei chol you think is appropriate. Limudei chol are much easier to fill in the gaps than yiras shamayim and Torah knowledge. An increase in limudei chol is by definition a decrease in limudei kodesh. That's the way the system works. The % of limudei chol sends a msg as well.

3. I personally prefer dorm. In addition to being in a yeshiva atmosphere 24/7 there is a certain social dynamic in that male enclave that makes them healthier.

4. At the end of the day, his machzor will be the most important influence. Do all you can to find out who is going to shiur alef (as they will be his friends) and shiur gimmel as they will be the role models.

5. Accept no compromise in the staff's also following the rules, especial the dorm counselor and mashgiach.

6. You or dh hang out a bit and listen quietly to how the boys talk to each other. Is there serious letzanus or lack of derech eretz and clean speech?

7. Of all the schools that meet those requirements choose the one where the boys are closest to your son in behavior and ability, where he will fit in socially and where you think they will invest in him.

8. If there is a choice between a little below him or a little above. Better he should have a challenge to rise than a current pulling him down.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 2:29 pm
Doesn’T you son want to go with his friends?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 8:20 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
I have 65 boyd in or after yeshiva katana.


Question

Quote:
4. At the end of the day, his machzor will be the most important influence. Do all you can to find out who is going to shiur alef (as they will be his friends) and shiur gimmel as they will be the role models.


These terms are not generally used in American yeshivos.

jayne - my advice:
Find out where HE wants to go. Where are the "good" boys in his class going? Ask his rebbi and his principal what they recommend.

In the US, unless you live in an area without adequate yeshivos, it is not recommended that you send a 9th grader out-of-town. They are quite young and need a home setting. There is plenty of time later on, post high school, for dorming.

If he's a top student in a yeshivish school, he should have no problem getting into any yeshiva he wants. May you have much nachas for him!
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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 26 2007, 10:31 am
Jayne,

Having just put one in high school (and looking at a few more in the near future), here's my take.

I've seen people running around trying to get kids into "the best yeshiva" because it confers a social status or because they think it'll help their kids with shidduchim when the time comes. That's the absolute wrong approach to take.

The proper approach to take is to send your kid to the best school *for him*. It may actually turn out to be the best yeshiva in town, but it may not as well. Ultimately, your son is going to spend four years in this school and the experiences that he has there are going to have a *very* significant impact on the way he experiences Yiddishkeit for the rest of his life. If he's not going to be happy, then he's going to rebel and possibly come to view Yiddishkeit with a negative view.

My son was in a yeshiva that had a high school program that was very learning intensive. However, my son is not the type who is going to sit and learn for nine hours a day and then study limudei chol for another three. If we forced him to do so, he would be terribly unhappy. He wanted a place where the learning style was less rigourous and where there were more opportunities for secular studies. So, DH and I researched around, found a couple of examples of good yeshivos in our area (we, like Motek, felt that out-of-town wasn't appropriate at this age -- but again, that's something that has to be determined for *your* kid) and chose one that has an excellent learning program and a good secular studies program. And he's happy there. He loves going to high school, he loves the learning and he really likes his rebbi and his teachers.

Could we have forced him into a Chaim Berlin, Mirrer, Yeshiva of Brooklyn or the like? Sure, we could have. But then he wouldn't be happy. DH and I aren't after status and if someone is going to be so callous as to out-of-hand reject our family for shidduchim because our son goes to the yeshiva he does, then we probably wouldn't want to marry them anyway.

The point I'm trying to make here is that you have to do what's right *for your child*. Don't worry about where everyone else is sending their kids - unless their kids are exact clones of yours then it doesn't matter. You're far better off sending to a "lesser yeshiva" if it's a good fit for your son then the "best yeshiva" if he's going to be miserable for four years.

Tammy
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 27 2007, 12:41 pm
Motek, why do you think a yeshiva katana child is too young to dorm? In Israel the only kids at home the year after BM are babyish, need to grow up a little. At 15 there are no good kids at home in charedi homes. It works. I was by a friend in the US and she was complaining that the local yeshiva didn't fit her son. I asked her why she didn't send him to dorm like the one a year older. She said, "I never thought of that". To me totally natural. Plus their local yeshiva has a lot of dorm kids..
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 27 2007, 7:17 pm
And people say "I'm" not in touch with the kids of today !!!

Motek, kids are sent away after 8 years old if need be.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 27 2007, 9:23 pm
so sad Crying
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momof6




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Oct 27 2007, 9:47 pm
Ima on wheels seems like great advice!
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 28 2007, 11:52 am
how do you make sure the links stay tight if you only see your child on the week end?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 29 2007, 10:35 am
choc wrote:
kids are sent away after 8 years old if need be.


and you know good and well that those are shlichus situations and if not for the Rebbe's blessings, it would not be done

Imaonwheels wrote:
Motek, why do you think a yeshiva katana child is too young to dorm? In Israel the only kids at home the year after BM are babyish, need to grow up a little. At 15 there are no good kids at home in charedi homes.


The fact that in Israel this is done and that you are forced to go along with it or be deemed babyish, doesn't move me in the least. In Israel it starts with sending infants out of the house and as others have posted, if you don't send babies to the metapelet, it's as though there's something wrong with you. How krum! I think that system is sick. Parents have lots to impart to their teenaged children and they are not done when the child finishes elementary school. Visits home, when the child is a guest, are not adequate for proper chinuch. My opinion. I don't think it works. I think the children make do.

In the US many of us think it's in the kids' best interest to be part of family life, but unfortunately, as threads here will attest, Americans are also latching on to the "independence" for kids baloney.

Here is an email response I got from someone when I asked her how her kids were doing. She lives out of NY in a city on the East Coast:

Quote:
C. is doing great Baruch Hashem! He's in 10th grade in the ... yeshiva in the area. He's in the top shiurim and learns with [his father] a lot. No reason to send him out of town. He's doing wonderfully on all fronts and enjoys a family life too. [a description of her other children follows, then she gets to her youngest:] ... is a handful. He's 4 and 4 months and cute as can be and all over the place. He's rambunctious, sweet, loud and strong willed. C. adores him. They are very close. This too is why it's good for C. to be home. The children really love one another and fight and cheer each other on and fight . . .
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 29 2007, 11:12 am
The Yeshiva in which my son learns is one that he wanted to go to. We would not have sent him if we didn't agree that we want him to learn there also.

We had been observing other bochurim that learned there for several years beforehand and impressed with their level of yiras shomayim and learning.

My next son is learning locally, and BH doing well. He would also like to learn out of town, but it isn't yet possible. His Yeshiva has a voluntary learning program after the usual night seder, and he attends that b"h. Otherwise I'd be concerned, but he's getting the same complete day of learning that he would in the OOT Yeshiva.

Although it probably is less demanding learning-wise, I hope he'll catch up with that when he does go iy"h. There is also a better quality "chevra" in the OOT Yeshiva. BH, my son has hashpaah on the boys in his class, but if it was the other way around, I wouldn't wait around to see if things get better.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 02 2007, 2:27 am
Motek wrote:

The fact that in Israel this is done and that you are forced to go along with it or be deemed babyish, doesn't move me in the least. In Israel it starts with sending infants out of the house and as others have posted, if you don't send babies to the metapelet, it's as though there's something wrong with you. How krum! I think that system is sick. Parents have lots to impart to their teenaged children and they are not done when the child finishes elementary school. Visits home, when the child is a guest, are not adequate for proper chinuch. My opinion. I don't think it works. I think the children make do.

In the US many of us think it's in the kids' best interest to be part of family life, but unfortunately, as threads here will attest, Americans are also latching on to the "independence" for kids baloney.

Here is an email response I got from someone when I asked her how her kids were doing. She lives out of NY in a city on the East Coast:

Quote:
C. is doing great Baruch Hashem! He's in 10th grade in the ... yeshiva in the area. He's in the top shiurim and learns with [his father] a lot. No reason to send him out of town. He's doing wonderfully on all fronts and enjoys a family life too. [a description of her other children follows, then she gets to her youngest:] ... is a handful. He's 4 and 4 months and cute as can be and all over the place. He's rambunctious, sweet, loud and strong willed. C. adores him. They are very close. This too is why it's good for C. to be home. The children really love one another and fight and cheer each other on and fight . . .


You mamash don't know what's going on in the Israeli chinuch scene.

I was never forced. Ever. Just like I was never forced or pressured to put my baby in maon.

Only mothers who work send out at 3 mos. There is less pressure on Israeli frum mothers than in the US. Most do not go to college and if they work, work as teachers, secretaries, etc and come home at 1. I never sent 1 kid out until 3 and I was never alone in the playground. In all the threads I hear saying they are alone in the playground I hear 2 groups - Anglos who have snob issues with the Israeli mentality or neighborhood with large number of kollel families. Expense are generally less and if the dh has a decent job at all the most a Mom will work is PT. There is affordable maon available for those who have no choice.

Yeshiva is not a kid needs independence thing. My kids were independent than your average American kid when they were 10-11. In yeshiva they are relearning that there is an authority, a schedule. At 13 a child is part of the community. So here they are a part of the shul and yeshiva and are involved. We also do not have the luxury of Disneyland and artificially keeping them babies. Their yeshiva is in a building that doesn't compare to the frei schools or those yeshivas that are connected to the govt. and they have real concerns. They are not collecting Rebbe cards at 14 or playing baseball.

Yeshiva is chinuch 24/7. There are, I've learned other important things a boy needs to know other than take his night at dishes and walk the baby erev Shabbos. They have to be assured of male chevre even if they have 6 sisters, Abba works 12 hours a day or Mom is a single parent. It is a dynamic that is foreign to us and I have learned on 2 dh's and 6 boys that they need it to be healthy. Both of my dh's grew up frei and both said to me that they envy that ability for boys to grow up together and be boys. Also the friendships and unique type of yeshiva fun. Farbrengens, shmooze whatever each group has until dawn.

Being a good student and behaving well is not the end all of chinuch. 14-15 is when identitiy is formed. If it is done in yeshiva it will stay. Even if the child rebels it stays as an anchor in their minds. I have experience with this as well. Several of my kids had issues but they always identified with the family and with Chabad because they had that experience. Today they are married and all very frum. The one who feels he is DL and wears a kippa sruga himself laughs at the kulos he sometimes sees. My dd who is Litvishe for the past 4 years writes the Rebbe when something bothers her or she is at a loss. My children as they have grown and married had enough courage to make their own decisions but they don't spit in the well they have drunk from and their family relations haven't suffered in the least.


Last edited by Imaonwheels on Fri, Nov 02 2007, 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 02 2007, 2:47 am
Quote:
Rachem aleynu cav rachem al banim


Quote:
Nashim rachmaniot bishlu et yaldeihem


I heard a vort, unfortunately the rav didn't give a source. Why does it say to be rachem like the father and not the mother. Because a mother usually has rachmanus on herself, she can't take seeing her baby not happy. But the father has rachmanous on his son enough to raise him properly even if what he needs is not pleasant for either of them.

The second verse says that women with rachmanous cooked their children. Go read the commentaries.

Toras Emes in Y-m refused to have a dorm for the yeshiva ketana and last year they finally opened one. Their original intention was to maintain the Yerushalmi taam by not taking OOT kids. Parents seeing the advantage of dorm preferred the style of Toras Emes (more Yerushalmi) but sent their kids away to where they can dorm.

Kids are home all Nissan, Tishrei and from 9th Av until RC Elul. Plus at least one Shabbos a month. When I gave birth they sent ds home. After 3 days we decided he should go back as my dd's HS gave her 2 weeks off to help me. They knew we don't have family here. She also went back after a week as I did not need her after the brisim. She was in dorm because we have no charedi HS for girls in our area.

Girls are better at home and boys in dorm, if the concern is the kids welfare.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 02 2007, 3:16 am
Motek, no-one thinks anything is wrong with you if you don't send your child to a metapelet. And most chareidi women who work only send their children until 1pm, even when they are three or four or five years old. In fact, in chareidi areas it is difficult to find metaplot or a framework for a three or four year old after 1pm, because there is little demand.

My dds come home between 1-3pm every day; my dss in cheder finish at 1pm - the older one goes back between 3-6 and the younger is then at home. Gan finishes at 1pm. Is that what it's like in America too? Doesn't sound like it from here. We all eat lunch together moreless.

I'm not up to that stage, but actually in the non-chassidish community the trend now is for the boys to be in their home town when in yeshiva ketana (13-16) and only later move away. The chareidi boys are 'men' already in the sense that they are learning a full day, without secular subjects. Those are davka the years for them to amass Torah knowledge. I know from other families in our town that the boys are in yeshiva all day and only come home to sleep late at night, and for some of Shabbos. The aim is for them to use these years for learning. Of course there is time for other activities - during bein hazmanim etc but not as a regular everyday thing.

The whole concept of being a teenager is an invention of secular, Western (and more affluent) society that created the idea of an adult according to Torah still being a child with few, if any, responsibilities. If you don't believe me that this is a result of society, just look at how 'teenagerhood' has become longer and longer in Western society. Today those in their early twenties are still 'finding themselves' 'deciding what to do with their lives' 'thinking about what to study' and 'taking a year off'. Even 40-50 years ago someone of 19 or 20 had the responsibility of either studying (for a purpose, not for fun) or working. Today many people in their thirties and beyond are still 'teenagers'.
In chareidi society (both chassidish and Litvish) teenagers are considered the adults they are. Along with the fun activities arranged for them in consideration of the fact that they are still young (trips, extracurricular events) they are most definitely expected to take on many adult responsibilities - the boys to learn as much as possible, and the girls to help at home and/or do chessed outside.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 02 2007, 3:25 am
We got an American oleh family in one of the yishuvim the year I was a gannenet. She wanted to know what kind of stupid country lets the kids out 1:20. That is too early for her to get them back. If this country was civilized gan would be until 4. And she was a WAHM and her dh (a limudei chol teacher, works afternoons) was often at home and doing things with their son.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 02 2007, 11:20 am
Quote:
The whole concept of being a teenager is an invention of secular, Western (and more affluent) society


yup. But you're no adult at 12/13, far from it. Not mentally, not physically... clearly you are a kid, escept halachically.

In the olden days there was no "teen" thing, but definitely people were kids longer than now.

Quote:
Today those in their early twenties are still 'finding themselves' 'deciding what to do with their lives' 'thinking about what to study' and 'taking a year off'.


Early twenties is a bit late, but I'm all for knowing where you go (instead of beginning and stopping after 3 years).
I did take a year off to think what I wanted to do and because I had enough of school. Ok, I was a year early, but still.

Quote:

Even 40-50 years ago someone of 19 or 20 had the responsibility of either studying (for a purpose, not for fun) or working.


I have many examples where it's not the case (studying something because you like/while waiting for get married/being at home without working...).


Quote:
Today many people in their thirties and beyond are still 'teenagers'.


true. It changes when they need to.


Quote:
In chareidi society (both chassidish and Litvish) teenagers are considered the adults they are.


I don't see that among the charedim I know. On contrary, they are rather "kiddish" compared to the same age.


Quote:
the boys to learn as much as possible, and the girls to help at home and/or do chessed outside.


This is not being adult.
Kids at school learn a lot, and helping at home (which is for both genders here) is sometimes startes around 6 in some families!
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