Mesivtas : How to choose?

Motek

Fri, Nov 02 2007, 9:41 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

You mamash don't know what's going on in the Israeli chinuch scene. I was never forced. Ever. Just like I was never forced or pressured to put my baby in maon. Only mothers who work send out at 3 mos.

Apparently, you know what's going on in your circles. I know what my family in Israel is doing and I've read enough on this forum to see that some posters living in Israel disagree with you. Not saying in the US is better. It's getting worse and worse here too.

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Also the friendships and unique type of yeshiva fun. Farbrengens, shmooze whatever each group has until dawn.

I don't think being up until dawn is healthy for mesivta-aged boys who need 9 hours of sleep a night. (the yeshiva in Brunoy does not allow it except for rare occasions)
I think the benefits that you describe can be enjoyed at 17 and are not necessary at 13.

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14-15 is when identitiy is formed. If it is done in yeshiva it will stay.

You have just explained why I think it is vital for boys to be home at that age, unless their homes are problematic and/or not conducive to forming them into the type of boys we want them to be.

No point in comparing your kids, who had issues, with those who don't and declaring that sending a mesivta-aged boy away from home is the ideal for all.

I am also not convinced that advice about mesivtos from those living in Israel to those living in the US is helpful. The mentality is different, the culture is different, expectations are different.

shalhevet wrote:

in the non-chassidish community the trend now is for the boys to be in their home town when in yeshiva ketana (13-16) and only later move away.

Sounds good.

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The whole concept of being a teenager is an invention of secular, Western (and more affluent) society

Sure I agree. I posted to this effect (about the supposed "normal" teenaged rebellion).

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In chareidi society (both chassidish and Litvish) teenagers are considered the adults they are. Along with the fun activities arranged for them in consideration of the fact that they are still young (trips, extracurricular events) they are most definitely expected to take on many adult responsibilities - the boys to learn as much as possible, and the girls to help at home and/or do chessed outside.

I think your first sentence is contradicted by the second.

Imaonwheels

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 11:12 am

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I am also not convinced that advice about mesivtos from those living in Israel to those living in the US is helpful. The mentality is different, the culture is different, expectations are different.

In this you are right. Because of the history in Israel and the rejection of the charedim by the frei non Jewish outlooks have been absorbed much less in Israel. Therefore the non jewish idea that kids need to coddled until 17-18 never took off here until recently and the outlooks are much more authentic Jewish.

See morot for boys, sports teams in yeshivas, total acceptance of the non Jewish break up of ages. The OP asks about a mesivta after 8th grade and doesn't even realize that a mesivta is pre yeshiva, 6th -8th grade. Sunday off is accepted w/o a complaint.

I happen to move in a lot of circles and our michlala is the largest in EY for limudei kodesh in EY. I see people from all groups and eidot and I have friends in all as well. I have yet to hear one complaint except from Anglos.

I have no problem for my boys to be in my home. I sent the ones with issues and I sent the really good ones. All were improved by it. One of my friends who was in the states as a shlucha from her marriage until several years ago (she is Sefardi, her dh American) is crying now because she did everything to keep her "baby" home after BM and now he is on the street. No discipline, no misgeret and no good chevra.

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 11:30 am

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Therefore the non jewish idea that kids need to coddled until 17-18 never took off here until recently and the outlooks are much more authentic Jewish.

The yiddishe mama who is still "after" her kids when they're 50 is non jewish? LOL

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See morot for boys, sports teams in yeshivas

Yes. My Bobover grandfather had that too.

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non Jewish break up of ages

huh? what is it?

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Sunday off is accepted w/o a complaint.

isn't it the norm?

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she did everything to keep her "baby" home after BM and now he is on the street. No discipline, no misgeret and no good chevra.

That's not the norm or the majority... and I can also tell you horror stories of kids/teens sent to yeshivos/sems and totally off the derech or fake frum today. Or those who started smoking. Or drinking. Or worse.
I'm not for giving the raising job to others than the parents, except when the parents are totally overwhelmed and lost.

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 11:31 am

Ruchel wrote:

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The whole concept of being a teenager is an invention of secular, Western (and more affluent) society

yup. But you're no adult at 12/13, far from it. Not mentally, not physically... clearly you are a kid, escept halachically.

In the olden days there was no "teen" thing, but definitely people were kids longer than now.

How were people kids longer when they were married and/or working exactly as adults did when they were ten or twelve or fourteen years old?

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Today those in their early twenties are still 'finding themselves' 'deciding what to do with their lives' 'thinking about what to study' and 'taking a year off'.

Early twenties is a bit late, but I'm all for knowing where you go (instead of beginning and stopping after 3 years).
I did take a year off to think what I wanted to do and because I had enough of school. Ok, I was a year early, but still.

When people didn't have the luxury of the financial possibility of taking a year off to think or stopping after 3 years, they had, at the most, one opportunity to get started in work/ study etc and they knew if they threw that away that was it. They thought about what to study before they finished school.

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Even 40-50 years ago someone of 19 or 20 had the responsibility of either studying (for a purpose, not for fun) or working.

I have many examples where it's not the case (studying something because you like/while waiting for get married/being at home without working...).

I explained that it is an economic phenomenon. People who were rich five hundred years ago could be teenagers for life and never have to work or take responsibility. So I'm sure such people existed 40 years ago. But it is only recently that large numbers of people could afford to provide their children with this lifestyle.

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Today many people in their thirties and beyond are still 'teenagers'.

true. It changes when they need to.

Or handicaps them from ever living a productive life.

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In chareidi society (both chassidish and Litvish) teenagers are considered the adults they are.

I don't see that among the charedim I know. On contrary, they are rather "kiddish" compared to the same age.

I was talking about Israeli chareidim. I also don't think, from other posts of yours, that your definition of chareidi is the same as mine.

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the boys to learn as much as possible, and the girls to help at home and/or do chessed outside.

This is not being adult.
Kids at school learn a lot, and helping at home (which is for both genders here) is sometimes startes around 6 in some families!

[/quote]
Being an adult is taking responsibility. I agree, it is also taking responsibility for your studies, instead of feeling like you are doing your parents a favour by studying. Yes, some helping at home at the age of 6 instead of Mommy and Daddy constantly running around trying to find clothes and toys their 'little dear' will be satisfied with, is the beginning of maturity (obviously at an age appropriate level and leaving time for games etc at that age).

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 11:36 am

Motek wrote:

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I think your first sentence is contradicted by the second.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Most of the time they are expected to have adult responsibilities. But because they are still young adults it is recognized that they need to have more extra-curricular activities than older adults. But we are talking here about bein hazemanim outings several times a year not baseball games every afternoon. Or activities for the girls once or twice a month, not that they have the right to waste hours of their time every day.

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 11:40 am

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How were people kids longer when they were married and/or working exactly as adults did when they were ten or twelve or fourteen years old?

Which generation are we discussing?
I was thinking great grand parents generation, who actually got married much later than us and stopped school around 18 in the experience of the people I know.

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They thought about what to study before they finished school.

Most do, but they aren’t mature enough. And also, you don’t know how it will be before you’re in.

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But it is only recently that large numbers of people could afford to provide their children with this lifestyle.

Large numbers maybe. Ok.

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Or handicaps them from ever living a productive life.

Almost all start doing something one day or another, if “only” having a spouse and 1 or 2 kids.

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I was talking about Israeli chareidim. I also don't think, from other posts of yours, that your definition of chareidi is the same as mine.

For me, charedi is chassid or Litvish.
My Israeli chassidish cousins are also quite not mature, I have to say.

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it is also taking responsibility for your studies, instead of feeling like you are doing your parents a favour by studying.

Lol you’re right
This generally comes after hs according to what I can see LOL

Imaonwheels

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 2:45 pm

Kids do take responsibility. Every year someone who goes to CH can see hundreds of Israeli kids at all ages. Except for the camp for under BM, most of those kids paid their own way. They gave up their extra pocket money or did odd jobs for a whole year for a goal. At the same time they carry a full day of learning.

The strong kids take responsibility for helping the weaker and if one of their friends starts to waver they shore him up. My sons' yeshiva katana had many jobs divvied up among the kids - fixing torn books, giving haircuts, tying tzitzis and cleaning the dorm. One kid 300 sh in his hat band all of the time in case some kid needed a gemach. Sometimes these jobs provided a little pocket money for families with lots of kids or little means.

I didn't say kids stay up until dawn every night but for a special day or chag? Your 14 year old doesn't learn all night on Shavuous? In Chabad yeshivos have the minhag to stay up all night Thursday night. Once a week is not a disaster, esp when Friday is daven, little learning, eating and mivtzoim.

And no, I do not think Mommy is the best to be imprinting her identity on her son. He is growing up to be a man, not a Mommy. I think the male environment allows him to grow and be himself. I also think that the need to be in total control should be much less for a parent by then and your subtle guidance is much more effective than having the kid under your microscope.

My guess is if you hear only from family then I see and hear much more first hand. Unless you have tens of family members in yeshivas of different chugim and in different cities. I have recently begun giving seminars for mothers of 10-12 yr olds.

Another thing you don't mention is that in America yeshiva gedola is not 3 whole years as the norm and 4 years in sem. With the growing acceptance of college the time in post HS learning is even less. When are they supposed to have that all encompassing yeshiva experience? My guess is a significant % get their "first night w/o Mommy" in non Jewish universities.

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 2:59 pm

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Except for the camp for under BM, most of those kids paid their own way. They gave up their extra pocket money or did odd jobs for a whole year for a goal.

wow!!

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The strong kids take responsibility for helping the weaker and if one of their friends starts to waver they shore him up. My sons' yeshiva katana had many jobs divvied up among the kids - fixing torn books, giving haircuts, tying tzitzis and cleaning the dorm. One kid 300 sh in his hat band all of the time in case some kid needed a gemach. Sometimes these jobs provided a little pocket money for families with lots of kids or little means.

WOW.
Incredible!

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And no, I do not think Mommy is the best to be imprinting her identity on her son. He is growing up to be a man, not a Mommy.

No, Daddy.
And, he still needs a mother.

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When are they supposed to have that all encompassing yeshiva experience?

I don't know. Many very fine people didn't go to yeshiva out of town, or to yeshiva at all! Some not even to Jewish school. Not that I would choose to send dd to public school nowadays with the bad level, but most people I know do NOT send children away.

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My guess is a significant % get their "first night w/o Mommy" in non Jewish universities.

Summer camp probably.
But yeah, if they don't go to camp, ever, then yes in university. Although here it's very rare to go to university far from house, so most still live at home b'h.

Imaonwheels

Sat, Nov 03 2007, 10:49 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

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And no, I do not think Mommy is the best to be imprinting her identity on her son. He is growing up to be a man, not a Mommy.

.
Maybe that's one of the reasons it says "hevei goleh l'mekom Torah". There might be something inherently limiting of a boy's growth in Torah by staying in his home environment.

Yes, I think so. I see so many mothers who are supersensitive at things that are so trivial. I don't remember it being like that when I was a kid. Not in the non Jewish, frei or frum community. Parents have to be flexible, its part of being a parent. A school should be much less. It helps a bachur to not have someone looking over his shoulders all the time but rather implementing the values that have hopefully strongly impressed during the years in cheder.

Also, parents are not impartial. It is their job to look out for their own child. It is the hanhala's job to think of the over all good of all of the boys. Being outside of the family allows a mashpia or mashgiach to assess a mida or habit that is holding the boy back and do the dirty work of correcting it. This is w/o the emotional peckele between teenagers and their parents.

We keep saying that we don't believe in that artificial invention called the teenage years that must be accompanied by rebellion. But we create them by making an artificial gap between the amt of responsibility a young person can handle and the amt we give him.

One of the reason I think places with more liberal parenting mores don't want their kids out is that they wait until very late to instill religious and moral values. Some of it is based on mistrust of the yeshivas.

Also, the fact that most American large cities (where most frum Jews live) are not safe for a kid to be on the street and kids have to be walked or driven by adults heightens that need to protect feeling. Because Israel is much safer 7 yr olds can and do take their younger siblings to gan and pick them up. All kids old enough to be careful in the playground go by themselves. But a good charedi yeshiva katana doesn't let the boys wander around off grounds.

Motek

Sun, Nov 04 2007, 7:30 am

imaonwheels - You have many useful and insightful points to offer when it comes to chinuch, however, since you are intent on deriding Americans and their chinuch, I don't think you are the appropriate person to be advising OP who lives in Monsey. You are also ignorant of the yeshiva system in the US since you are under the impression that chareidi yeshivos are closed on Sunday. Elementary school boys, whether in Lubavitch or the Mir (to name two disparate yeshivos in Brooklyn) have yeshiva on Sunday.

No doubt about it, if an Anglo is moving to Israel, they'd better plan on adapting to the prevailing system. Since OP has not asked about mesivtos in Israel, this is besides the point.

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Because Israel is much safer ...

Monsey, Monsey, Monsey, Monsey, Monsey
The OP lives in Monsey!

Imaonwheels wrote:

And no, I do not think Mommy is the best to be imprinting her identity on her son. He is growing up to be a man, not a Mommy.

Your snide remark would be accurate (though rudely put) if you were addressing a "single mom." If you go back and look at the email I posted earlier on, you will see that the 10th grader learns regularly with his father who is a talmid chacham and a mechaber of sefarim.

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Another thing you don't mention is that in America yeshiva gedola is not 3 whole years as the norm and 4 years in sem. With the growing acceptance of college the time in post HS learning is even less.

I don't mention it because I don't know what you're talking about. Those who are not into learning and who are modern and college-bound, go to Israel for a year after high school. Those who are yeshivish/chasidish remain fulltime in yeshiva until they marry and then continue learning in kollel. Those in between spend several years post-high school in Beis Medrash, fulltime, and then attend college while maintaining sedarim.

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One of the reason I think places with more liberal parenting mores don't want their kids out is that they wait until very late to instill religious and moral values.

LOL describes me a tee ... I think I'll wait till, hmmm, around 20, to start instilling values. It's playtime till then! Tongue Out

Come on imaonwheels - quit the put-downs and lighten up. We can have a difference of opinion without nastiness, I hope.

Clarissa

Sun, Nov 04 2007, 12:44 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

And no, I do not think Mommy is the best to be imprinting her identity on her son. He is growing up to be a man, not a Mommy. I think the male environment allows him to grow and be himself.

Parents are not imprinting their identities on their children. They are guiding them by love, example and knowledge, whether they are male or female. I hope that my children, by living in a home with a healthy marriage and healthy communication between us, our children, our school, members of the community and everyday people, learn who we are and who we hope they'll become.

To make this about "Mommy" making the son less able to be a man is ridiculous. When in my teens, I learned a tremendous amount from both my parents, because they had a lot more to offer than just whatever gender-specific characteristics you think will be imprinted on impressionable minds. I learned so much of what I needed to take me though life, marriage and independent living by observing them both as I grew and matured. Frankly, had I been in a dorm with a bunch of girls and just teachers, I would have missed a lot. But that's ME, I'm not denigrating the experiences of children who do go away to school.

I just don't like such a simplistic criticism.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Nov 04 2007, 11:23 pm

Motek, you went and made this personal. I wasn't talking about anyone in particular.

To separate the 2 objections to my post.
1. I believe a time in an all male environment is healthy. I also believe that learning to be responsible for yourself, handle money and solve problems w/o Mommy and Daddy is best done in the safe environment of the yeshiva katana and not in your own apt, college campus or that hefkerville for 18 yr olds called the year in Israel. Too many parents do not check that the Israeli misgeret they put their kids in is one that will supervise them. For them it enough that it is connected to a famous name yeshiva. These boys (I get 2-3 every 2 weeks for Shabbos) are like like wild men let out of a cage because the lack of someone standing over their shoulders is so new to them. The badatz has asked people to not rent to them to force them to live in the dorms and not take apartments. Only by sending to a misgeret that does not have separate facilities and rules for the American students can you be sure they have any supervision at all. How many parents who send to Mir, Brisk, Or Torah, Lakewood. etc know their babies are tramping around our neighborhoods and taking pictures of themselves in Arab villages w/o a weapon and being clueless about where it is safe and where not. They always give us these pics as keepsakes.

2. You personalize my "attack" on American chinuch. I feel I have some legitimate criticism, as I do of the Israeli system as well if that had been the topic of the thread. The major criticism being copying non Jewish schools and making use of non Jewish sources to decide what Jewish children should learn. The cheder has alway been directed by talmidei chachamim and should not be taking directions from frei or non Jews. The only way to do that i9s to make sure that only talmidei chachamim who are experts in Jewish education have any input whatsoever to curriculum.

a. Why the attack and belittling of the melamed? (Other threads)
b. Why the need to exchange Jewish terms for those of school. I have yet to figure out what a Pre 1-A is except that it is little kids. And why does it upset you that I insist on using the normative Jewish (not Israeli) terms?
c. Why is the advice of chaza"l (which they say adds to yiras shamayim) to begin teaching boys to read kometz aleh oh at age 3 ignored? And the bringing of the boys to the melamed after their upsheren a mere ceremony with no real meaning as tomorrow the boy will go back to the morah?

There are threads here and on other forums by people who complain for weeks that their son has to go to cheder. They don't want to let him go, they don't want to toilet train him. Plenty of threads were a mother is crying that until 1pm is too long, 3 days a week too much, etc. There are quite a few threads where mothers couldn't control themselves and made reasons to take the kid out.

The OP wanted advice on yeshivos. As a mother of 6 boys who all are through or in the middle except for one 12 yr old and being involved in the chinuch world I offered my advice. The OP is a big girl and will make her decision.

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 04 2007, 11:47 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

2. The major criticism being copying non Jewish schools and making use of non Jewish sources to decide what Jewish children should learn. The cheder has alway been directed by talmidei chachamim and should not be taking directions from frei or non Jews. The only way to do that i9s to make sure that only talmidei chachamim who are experts in Jewish education have any input whatsoever to curriculum.

a. Why the attack and belittling of the melamed? (Other threads)
b. Why the need to exchange Jewish terms for those of school. I have yet to figure out what a Pre 1-A is except that it is little kids. And why does it upset you that I insist on using the normative Jewish (not Israeli) terms?
c. Why is the advice of chaza"l (which they say adds to yiras shamayim) to begin teaching boys to read kometz aleh oh at age 3 ignored? And the bringing of the boys to the melamed after their upsheren a mere ceremony with no real meaning as tomorrow the boy will go back to the morah?

There are threads here and on other forums by people who complain for weeks that their son has to go to cheder. They don't want to let him go, they don't want to toilet train him. Plenty of threads were a mother is crying that until 1pm is too long, 3 days a week too much, etc. There are quite a few threads where mothers couldn't control themselves and made reasons to take the kid out.

I very much agree with you, imaonwheels. Perhaps, instead of those in America looking at those in Israel as having a different culture etc, they could recognize that talmidei chachamim in EY as well as the entire chinuch system are operating under far less influence from non jews and realize that that might make it worth examining.

Loving a child is giving him what he needs. Spoiling a child is giving him what he wants (when he doesn't need it). I also feel from many threads here that many people in America, influenced by non jews, feel that they have to give and give and give to their children without making demands on them. (This is certainly the case in Israel too, but it is much less felt within frum society). Toilet training is really a good example. How come there aren't any Israeli kids who aren't yet ready to learn when they are pushing three (or later?) Maybe it's their American mommies who aren't yet ready to pass on a bit of responsibility? There is appropriate love and attention for children of every age and there are appropriate demands to make of them.

Chareidi boys in Israel learn aleph bais at 3 and are reading at 4-5. They are not pushed and they are not miserable. They are delighted with their achievements.

Jewish women in Jewish history were not praised for keeping their children babies for as long as they could and coddling them. But for encouraging them to grow and develop even when it was difficult for them. There are stories about many gedolei hador in Europe whose parents sent them to far away yeshivas even before bar mitzva so that they could grow in Torah. And that was at a time before telephones and affordable transportation when they had no idea if they would even see them again. I'm quite sure that for those mothers it was terribly painful - do people here think they wouldn't have preferred to have their sons at home and have nachas from them? But they realised that children are a pikadon from Hashem, not for our personal pleasure, but our responsibility to help them grow in Torah.