How do you define "frum"?

lavenderchimes

Mon, Jan 08 2018, 10:32 pm

I asked DH this question last night, and am curious what imamother's think. What observances or qualities make someone "frum"? What things disqualify a person from being "frum"?

This is particularly relevant for those in transition who are becoming more observant -- at what point does a person cross into "frum" territory?

Snow White

Mon, Jan 08 2018, 10:37 pm

I always thought keeping shabbos was the transition point of becoming Frum. But I get confused when thinking it the other way, at what point is a person no longer considered Frum, because if shabbos applies there too does it mean all the teens or adults texting on shabbos are not Frum?! I consider them still Frum.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Jan 08 2018, 10:47 pm

Right or wrong, in my mind frum people are the ones you can identify as Jews by how they look and the sorts of environments they're comfortable in.
We live in a pretty modern community. Many men who don't wear tzitzis and no yarmulke in work environment. Women who don't cover hair, wear jeans or even short shorts, sleeveless. Go to bars, beaches, things like that. They're all shomer shabbos, keep kosher, etc. but in my mind that's not "frum".
Go ahead, throw the tomatoes now.

ontheotherside

Mon, Jan 08 2018, 10:50 pm

Growing up (chasidish) I thought frum was people like us....now that I’m older and have changed significantly.....frum to me is someone who treats others properly, someone that doesn’t lie and steal, someone that helps others, someone that tries to keep shobbos, kosher and taharas hamishpacha to the best of their abilities. If you keep the last three but lie and steal in my opinion you are not frum.

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 1:33 am

simba wrote:

Someone who keeps: Shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha. More the merrier, but that's is basic frum to me.

Yup! That's my definition too, though the latter is a bit hard to verify. LOL

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 2:45 am

The word frum is just the yiddish equivalence of orthodox, observant. Its the same thing.
To me, frum/observant/orthodox all mean people who keep shabbat, kashrut and for the married people, taharat hamishpacha.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 2:46 am

amother wrote:

im not going to throw tomatoes, but I want to understand this. How is the word frum different than that word observant or orthodox?

Raisin

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 4:24 am

shabbos, kosher and THM. But lots of people who keep a basic level of this might prefer to describe themselves as observant or orthodox, not frum.

People who keep a little less then that are traditional. More, ultra-orthodox or whatever you want to call it.

Obviously everyone struggles with different mitzvos. Some might find tznius hard, others honesty or lashan hara.

salt

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 4:45 am

FYI,

In Google Translate, if you're going from German -> English

then "fromm" gets translated to "religious"

However if you go from English -> German :

then "religious" gets translated to "religios"
and only "pious" gets translated to "fromm"

imasoftov

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 5:55 am

"Personally, I do not know at all what is the meaning of the word frum; also my father did not mention such a word to me. But it appears to me that it is a type of garment whose outward cover is pride, whose lining is anger, and which is sewn with the black of depression" - Rabbi Menachem Nochum Friedman of Shtefanesht

salt

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 8:04 am

imasoftov wrote:

Why?
Sounds quite negative and derogatory.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 8:18 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

This.

Frum means orthodox. Period. You can say it means something else but it doesn’t. Just like you can say Apple means banana, but it doesn’t.

And orthodox means shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha.

InnerMe

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 11:58 am

lavenderchimes wrote:

As we've seen time and again, Imas have different definitions of "frum." Some believe it's same thing as Orthodox. Some feel it's an obviously Jewish "look." There is no line that we can draw: Before Frum, After Frum. Since there's so many different opinions feel free to go with the definition that suits you best...

And even within the subcategories like Orthodox, you'll get different arguments of what that means.

My personal advice: Do away with the labels. Who cares if lady A thinks your frum or Lady B doesn't. You are our sister. Period.

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 12:38 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

im not going to throw tomatoes, but I want to understand this. How is the word frum different than that word observant or orthodox?

Strictly speaking the words may have the exact same definitions. It's about the connotation.

"Frum" evokes an image in my head. And it isn't my neighbors (I'll pick on them, just for an example) who motzei shabbos are running out to a local Irish pub (where full non-kosher menu is served) to drink beer and listen to music, dressed in jeans and baseball cap (the man) and cut-off shorts and a tank top (the woman). They are lovely people and may be very strict on certain things (more than I am for all I know) but I can't wrap my head around calling these people "frum" even though I agree they are orthodox.

amother

Rose

Tue, Jan 09 2018, 12:42 pm

amother wrote:

That's OK. You're probably my neighbor, given the Irish bar reference, and I can't wrap my head around calling people who talk about their fellow Jews that way as "frum."