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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children
Proof of Hashem and Torah for Children
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amother
Purple


 

Post Sun, Jan 14 2018, 11:50 pm
amother wrote:
Same here. You need an open understanding rav. I doubt I would still be frum if not for a certain rav who encouraged me to ask and fight till I got an answer that I liked.

How do I find someone for my daughter? She could really use a mentor.
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shyshira




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 12:14 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Some books have to be read, not scanned.

I think I said earlier that it is not possible to have proof, as G-d is not visible. But amother called these proofs "flimsy", we are having an argument over what the word flimsy means.


I noticed that.

I think 'flimsy proof' as a phrase itself is problematic....

But anyway once you said its not possible for there to be proof.. I'm not sure why the 'flimsy proof' item was lobbed at you.

regarding the books - not likely that I'm going to be reading them, and you can't prove that I don't know all of the argument contained within, and I can't prove that I do - so lets maybe move on from this..

to add to the recent trend of quoting Harry Maryles - I like what he said here:

http://haemtza.blogspot.ca/201......html

It is with all of this in mind that I found a letter to the editor in Hamodia by Professor Yitzchak Levine quite curious. The letter was in response to a ‘miracle’ story that has been making the rounds. Here is an excerpt from the letter:

…based on a conversation I had many years ago with Harav Avigdor Miller, zt”l. Whenever I would (tell) him a “miracle” story, he would dismiss it with a wave of his hand and say, “We are not mechuyav to believe such stories.” I once asked him why he invariably responded this way; he replied, “Our emunah is strained enough by what we are required to believe. To add to this is not wise”.

This statement deserves some analysis. Was Rabbi Miller’s Emunah strained? Did he have some doubts about his beliefs? Could it be that his book ‘Rejoice, O’ Youth’ was a response to his own questions and doubts?

He obviously felt the way I do about miracle stories – which is one of the things that pleases me about him: ‘Don’t believe them’. These are the kinds of stories certain Tzedaka organizations have been using with increasing frequency in order to extract funds from desperate people.

They will offer a ‘miracle cure’ for whatever ails you via some hocus pocus obscure Segula they found. They will cite one miracle story after another about how this Segula ‘saved’ someone. The Segula always invloves sending them some money. So people with fertility problems… or various diseases… or child behavior problems or - you name it - send them the requisite amount hoping for the same results. I recall one story they published about a guy who got out of being prosecuted for a financial crime via ‘buying’ one of their Segulos!

I have in the past expressed my deep objections to these kinds of fundraising tactics. They are misleading and the prey on people’s fears and serious problems. I think that if Rabbi Miller were still alive he would be just as upset with these tactics as I am.

But that isn’t my issue here. My issue is Rabbi Miller’s skeptical approach to Emunah while at the same time declaring evolution to be an impermissible belief.

All of this is what makes him an enigma to me.

In the final analysis - this is truly an amazing fact about someone as pious as Rav Avigdor Miller. I would have thought he would never express the reality of struggling with belief. On the other hand, maybe that’s why he wrote the book. Maybe he was trying to convince himself.
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unexpected




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 12:30 am
amother wrote:
Rabbi Daniel mechanic is amazing, and usually speaks to high school girls about these types of topics. Maybe see if he has shiurim online..

ETA: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....48255

Listen to this.. you won't be sorry, rabbi mechanics amazing

My kids listen to R Mechanic on Torah anytime and they love him, however I don't think he has one where he speaks about Christianity. I'm thinking that I would tell my daughter that the non jews have confessionals so that they can do their aveiros and then confess and be absolved. This allows the religion to have very large membership because they are not really imposing standards, if everything can be forgiven just by confessing anonymously. It also allows the Vatican to become very rich because they can exploit those who feel guilty by asking them to give a donation in order to get absolution. A good rule is to follow the money. If the people at the top are getting rich off the religion it's a good sign that they are not in it "lshem shamayim"
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 12:31 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
You were a kid when you read them? Both books? All the pages? How old? Sorry, I'm not buying.


I don't know, I was probably 12 or 13.

And since the word "flimsy" bothers you, I'll take it back and replace it with "unconvincing".
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 12:33 am
This is going to be a super quick reply - Rabbi Miller was a public school boy. He went to college. He obviously spent much time thinking about this, which is probably how his book developed. I think it's a mistake to think that tzaddikim were born that way; even tzaddikim are human, they start off as babies, children, etc.

Rabbi Marylus captured his style very well, R Miller questioned everything and took zero for granted. His answers, though, were sometimes quite off the beaten track, but they were excellent answers. I never discovered any flaw in his logic (and I did find many flaws with other speakers or writers logic).

No one can say that Hashem is visible, as he's not. But as R Miller explained in one of his tapes, in this world we can see his back, like a man who just turned the corner, you can see the back of his coat.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 1:58 am
amother wrote:
How do I find someone for my daughter? She could really use a mentor.


Is there a girls high school in your area? Find out who the rabbis are who teach there and reach out to one or two of them.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 2:20 am
amother wrote:
How do I find someone for my daughter? She could really use a mentor.


I don't know, but it will be important to find someone who has deep faith, and some knowledge of Christianity. I don't think that just any teacher will do. Don't be afraid to approach someone out of the immediate community.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 8:42 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
This is going to be a super quick reply - Rabbi Miller was a public school boy. He went to college. He obviously spent much time thinking about this, which is probably how his book developed. I think it's a mistake to think that tzaddikim were born that way; even tzaddikim are human, they start off as babies, children, etc.




He went to public school, as did many, many people of that age, and a Talmud Torah, and had solid mentors growing up.
As far as college, the college was YU. And from there he went to Slobodka.
Just thought I'd mention this.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:05 am
I'm going to give proof based on this thread alone. As the famous Shakespeare line goes "That women doth protest too much"

I don't usually post on these threads. Because I know that if someone asks for proof of Torah M'Sinai on Imamother the thread is guaranteed to end up with a bunch of yelling and sneering that there is no proof.

Seeing how the "no proof" crowd cannot control themselves from yelling and sneering "no proof" even when they were asked not to is a major indication that deep down they know they are wrong. They have to yell and sneer to quiet those feelings.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:09 am
leah233 wrote:
I'm going to give proof based on this thread alone. As the famous Shakespeare line goes "That women doth protest too much"

I don't usually post on these threads. Because I know that if someone asks for proof of Torah M'Sinai on Imamother the thread is guaranteed to end up with a bunch of yelling and sneering that there is no proof.

Seeing how the "no proof" crowd cannot control themselves from yelling and sneering "no proof" even when they were asked not to is a major indication that deep down they know they are wrong. They have to yell and sneer to quiet those feelings.


I heard Rabbi Tatz say that there is no 100% proof. But just like we can research a doctor for a serious condition, and feel pretty confident that we've made a good choice (with Hashem's help), we can factor in all the "proofs", the empirical evidence a la Rabbi Miller (apples, eyes), etc. and feel that we are making a very informed decision to believe.
(Apologies if I'm not saying this correctly.)
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shyshira




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:14 am
leah233 wrote:
I'm going to give proof based on this thread alone. As the famous Shakespeare line goes "That women doth protest too much"

I don't usually post on these threads. Because I know that if someone asks for proof of Torah M'Sinai on Imamother the thread is guaranteed to end up with a bunch of yelling and sneering that there is no proof.

Seeing how the "no proof" crowd cannot control themselves from yelling and sneering "no proof" even when they were asked not to is a major indication that deep down they know they are wrong. They have to yell and sneer to quiet those feelings.


Not so much yelling and sneering here.

This is a frum forum. Permission to enter requires belief in Hashem. This isn’t a conversation with atheists.

The point is there are many avenues to strengthen belief. That’s all we should be helping a 12 year old with. If we set ourselves up to prove something to her we’re doing her, and ourselves a disservice.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:18 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I heard Rabbi Tatz say that there is no 100% proof. But just like we can research a doctor for a serious condition, and feel pretty confident that we've made a good choice (with Hashem's help), we can factor in all the "proofs", the empirical evidence a la Rabbi Miller (apples, eyes), etc. and feel that we are making a very informed decision to believe.
(Apologies if I'm not saying this correctly.)


On of the times The Kuzari was being challenged with "How can you not believe the scientists who proved as an absolute fact that the world has always existed. For hundreds of years they were doing research and experiments which all prove the same conclusion-the world has always existed"(some things don't change...) acknowledges that there is enormous evidence to believe the world has always existed and that there are reasons not to believe in Torah M'Sinai (none of that evidence or reasons are believed by anyone today). He then goes on to explain why he believes in Torah M'Sinai despite the counterevidence.

But that has nothing to do with the way "no proof" is being said on imamother
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:46 am
leah233 wrote:
I'm going to give proof based on this thread alone. As the famous Shakespeare line goes "That women doth protest too much"

I don't usually post on these threads. Because I know that if someone asks for proof of Torah M'Sinai on Imamother the thread is guaranteed to end up with a bunch of yelling and sneering that there is no proof.

Seeing how the "no proof" crowd cannot control themselves from yelling and sneering "no proof" even when they were asked not to is a major indication that deep down they know they are wrong. They have to yell and sneer to quiet those feelings.

I do not think it can be proved that no valid proof could exist, I only think that it has yet to be refuted by countexample. I have no emotional attachment to this position.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:48 am
shyshira wrote:
This is a frum forum. Permission to enter requires belief in Hashem. This isn’t a conversation with atheists.

What's more, one does not have to believe in the validity of proposed proofs to join this forum.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:09 am
amother wrote:
I don't know, I was probably 12 or 13.

And since the word "flimsy" bothers you, I'll take it back and replace it with "unconvincing".


Dodgerblue, if you read both those books cover to cover at age 12, I'm sure that you are aware that your IQ is in the highest 5% of the population, if not higher. We have no way of knowing if op's dd is as smart as you, probability would say that she is part of the other 95%. Why not start with R' Waldman's book, which is somewhat easier reading, and go from there? Like the saying goes "Why borrow trouble?" Don't assume that others will find this as unconvincing as you did.

But now that we started this conversation, can you explain which "proofs" you found "unconvincing"? I don't think I have a problem discussing this, as nothing he writes is part of our Ani Maamins...
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amother
Beige


 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:16 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Dodgerblue, if you read both those books cover to cover at age 12, I'm sure that you are aware that your IQ is in the highest 5% of the population, if not higher. We have no way of knowing if op's dd is as smart as you, probability would say that she is part of the other 95%. Why not start with R' Waldman's book, which is somewhat easier reading, and go from there? Like the saying goes "Why borrow trouble?" Don't assume that others will find this as unconvincing as you did.

But now that we started this conversation, can you explain which "proofs" you found "unconvincing"? I don't think I have a problem discussing this, as nothing he writes is part of our Ani Maamins...


I'm a different amother.

I would be very careful with Rabbi Waldman's book which prefaces the book by saying it will convince all but true atheists and then went on to make a very unconvincing argument. I finished the book wondering if I was indeed an atheist (no I'm not).
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amother
Gray


 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:16 am
Project inspire has plenty of info. I have the answers but its too long to explain.
Anvils? of Sinai is supposed to be great.
Also all the other religions God somehow revealed himself to one person. In Judaism God revealed himself to everyone by Har sinai. Also all religions say that there was a Matan Torah for the Jews.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:17 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Dodgerblue, if you read both those books cover to cover at age 12, I'm sure that you are aware that your IQ is in the highest 5% of the population, if not higher. We have no way of knowing if op's dd is as smart as you, probability would say that she is part of the other 95%. Why not start with R' Waldman's book, which is somewhat easier reading, and go from there? Like the saying goes "Why borrow trouble?" Don't assume that others will find this as unconvincing as you did.

But now that we started this conversation, can you explain which "proofs" you found "unconvincing"? I don't think I have a problem discussing this, as nothing he writes is part of our Ani Maamins...


I have no interest in tearing down anyone's emunah. If people are happy with what they have read, then as you say, there's no need to borrow trouble. There's a whole internet out there disproving proofs of God's existence. I see no reason to bring that into a frum site.

The OP's daughter sounds like a bright girl. There's nothing wrong with giving her books and telling her that this is what works for some people but that she doesn't have to worry if these books don't work for her.

I myself believe completely in Hashem and His Torah, and for me, that belief comes from someplace beyond the rational mind. (I don't know my IQ, but I am smart enough to know that I can't know everything.)
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:18 am
leah233 wrote:
On of the times The Kuzari was being challenged with "How can you not believe the scientists who proved as an absolute fact that the world has always existed. For hundreds of years they were doing research and experiments which all prove the same conclusion-the world has always existed"(some things don't change...) acknowledges that there is enormous evidence to believe the world has always existed and that there are reasons not to believe in Torah M'Sinai (none of that evidence or reasons are believed by anyone today). He then goes on to explain why he believes in Torah M'Sinai despite the counterevidence.

But that has nothing to do with the way "no proof" is being said on imamother


If you look at the reasons however, that Torah educated individuals go OTD or practice without believing, it is possibly because Midrashim are used to fill in the unknown details in parshas from the Torah that we wouldn't otherwise understand and some of those Midrashim contradict each other and were not directly given with the Torah. For example, we are taught that the entire human race was born from a single couple who had 3 sons. Now, the sons had to have children with someone so now we are told that the sons had twin sisters and they married their brothers. Now, I choose to believe it, because the Torah itself was passed down from father to son from the time of Matan Torah, but much of what we practice and believe was passed along orally and some of it apparently lost or forgotten. But I also understand why some people would have a hard time believing, not that Hashem exists or created the world, but that everything stated in the Torah is exactly what happened and the world was created in 6 days, the way that we understand days, and not in days that lasted millions of years.

And from some of the anger that I see expressed on this thread when someone says that there is no "proof", those expressing the anger might not be the ones that a person with doubts should talk to because when people are silenced from mentioning those questions or doubts, they are more likely to go OTD than someone who is told that his questions and doubts are normal and that we are actually required to believe without hard proof such as fossils, artifacts, or writings in the history of other nations (not that those actually constitute proof either).

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....h.htm

https://www.ou.org/torah/mitzv.....zvos/


Last edited by southernbubby on Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:21 am
amother wrote:
I'm a different amother.

I would be very careful with Rabbi Waldman's book which prefaces the book by saying it will convince all but true atheists and then went on to make a very unconvincing argument. I finished the book wondering if I was indeed an atheist (no I'm not).


Thank you for giving me the heads up. I didn't read his book, but I heard a lot of great reviews, maybe they just read it superficially, so it's good to know.

My only problem with Rabbi Miller's books is that he wrote them in the 1960's, which as of now is over 50 years ago. Science has changed somewhat in the last fifty years, so some of the refutations are out-dated, as in, science no longer believes x, y, or z, and perhaps there are some newer theories that are not addressed.

I wish there was someone who was capable of updating, but I don't think such a person exists in the Jewish world of 2018...
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