Proof of Hashem and Torah for Children

southernbubby

Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:30 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Thank you for giving me the heads up. I didn't read his book, but I heard a lot of great reviews, maybe they just read it superficially, so it's good to know.

My only problem with Rabbi Miller's books is that he wrote them in the 1960's, which as of now is over 50 years ago. Science has changed somewhat in the last fifty years, so some of the refutations are out-dated, as in, science no longer believes x, y, or z, and perhaps there are some newer theories that are not addressed.

I wish there was someone who was capable of updating, but I don't think such a person exists in the Jewish world of 2018...

A friend of ours, Rabbi Schneur Polter, wrote a book a few years ago, called "God is Great", which is a refutation to atheists, but basically balances out religion with scientific theories. We can't prove much of science either nor can we prove all of history. A religious belief system is to be believed and not held up to the scrutiny of the scientific method. To me, it is more about teaching a child or adult how to believe and less about proving anything.

Mommyg8

Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

I have no interest in tearing down anyone's emunah. If people are happy with what they have read, then as you say, there's no need to borrow trouble. There's a whole internet out there disproving proofs of God's existence. I see no reason to bring that into a frum site.

The OP's daughter sounds like a bright girl. There's nothing wrong with giving her books and telling her that this is what works for some people but that she doesn't have to worry if these books don't work for her.

I myself believe completely in Hashem and His Torah, and for me, that belief comes from someplace beyond the rational mind. (I don't know my IQ, but I am smart enough to know that I can't know everything.)

You said this extremely well. I wasn't getting where you were coming from, sorry...

I do realize now that I did grow up in a simpler time (there was no internet), so you really had to search, or be enormously brilliant, to think of the holes in the many pro-Creation arguments. These books worked for me when I was growing up because I didn't have access to, as you say, internet sites which are dedicated to disproving proofs of G-d's existence.

I think that you are right, that nowadays the approach has to be different. We can't win the intellectual argument (although I still think we DO have some pretty good arguments), and for me as well, ultimate acceptance did have to come from the part of my psyche that is emotional. But for me, personally, I did need the intellectual piece as well, so that I could say, in full faith, that I have "permission to believe". As an aside - if you think that our arguments are flimsy - I think that other religions arguments are way more flimsy, and even evolution is extremely flimsy to me as well!

You write that these books don't work for you, and your belief comes from a place beyond the rational mind. But, for me, they did work, not as 100% proof, but as a strong enough argument to know that intellectually, our religion and our Torah does make sense, and can have a rational basis, even if the entirety is somewhat beyond my grasp.

And I do have to hand it to you - if you are smart enough to know that you can't know everything, that you are ahead of 99% of the rest of the world!

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:51 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

This was very gracious. (I also grew up in the pre-internet age, but had a wonderful library at my disposal.)

I think it's vitally important to recognize that emunah is ultimately personal. By definition, it's not one size fits all. You don't die from a question. It's better to live with doubt than to destroy our brightest children by insisting on certainty.

leah233

Mon, Jan 15 2018, 10:54 am

southernbubby wrote:

And from some of the anger that I see expressed on this thread when someone says that there is no "proof", those expressing the anger might not be the ones that a person with doubts should talk to because when people are silenced from mentioning those questions or doubts, they are more likely to go OTD than someone who is told that his questions and doubts are normal and that we are actually required to believe without hard proof such as fossils, artifacts, or writings in the history of other nations (not that those actually constitute proof either).

If someone has actual question then they should be discussed .Although I don't think imamother is the right venue to do .And a thread asking for proof is not the place to ask your questions

BUT a statement like "there is no proof" is not a question. And a statement like Ahhh. Don't tell them that. It's comforting for them to believe there is indisputable, undeniable evidence. not only isn't a question, it is a very generic form of manipulation and mind control.

Last edited by leah233 on Mon, Jan 15 2018, 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby

Mon, Jan 15 2018, 11:00 am

leah233 wrote:

If someone has actual question then they should be discussed .Although I don't think imamother is the right venue to do .And a thread asking for proof is not the place to ask your questions

BUT a statement like "there is no proof" is not a question. And a statement like Ahhh. Don't tell them that. It's comforting for them to believe there is indisputable, undeniable evidence. not only isn't a question it is a very generic way used for manipulating people into believing anything.

well the obvious solution is to tell the mother where to find the proper guidance for a 12 year old rather than to try to prove the Torah's validity to the mother.

Maybe there are imamothers out there who are up to the task of writing something that would be beneficial and of interest to that age group.

Optimystic

Mon, Jan 15 2018, 1:30 pm

My take on the difference between Judaism and Christianity comes from Parshat Nitzavim, "For this commandment that I command you this day is not concealed from you... ...it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you can fulfill it."

I.e., whether you say you can or you say you can't, you're right. Christianity is predicated on the belief that no one can possibly keep the Torah. Fortunately, most Christians are not Jews, so they don't have to keep the whole Torah anyway. Christianity works for Christians because they are not Jews.

My approach to all her questions would be as open as possible. HaShem allows other religions to exist for perhaps many reasons, among them being that people are different. We follow Torah because we are Jews.

If you think her questions go beyond healthy curiosity to serious doubt, that's okay too. Often, those who had to over come the strongest doubts (whether due to intellectual confusion or great hardship) end up with the strongest emunah. The more serious the doubt, the more impervious it is to rational argument. Serious doubts are overcome by continuing to set a positive example of serving HaShem with love.