All my years of Jewish education in the best schools didn't

amother

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 9:34 am

give me the clarity about religion and atheism that I got last night while listening to (of all things) the Laura Ingraham show on WABC. She had on Dan Barker, author of Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist. She made him sound like he was totally out of touch. She, and another guest, whose name I don't recall, had rounds and rounds of ammunition and Dan Barker was in trouble. I wish I had heard this program years ago. I would have had many more years of inner peace and confidence.

I rarely listen to WABC. Looks like this was one of those "accidents" in life.

amother

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 10:17 am

Yes it is sad.
However I know where you are coming from. It wasn't until I joined a twelve step program that I really felt like I knew why I was here. The relationships that I have built with Non-jewish women have pulled me through some of the hardest times of my life.
I don't know why I didn't get "it" the first time around (school/home). But I am so greatful to H-shem that I have it now.
My entire day I am constantly in touch with G-d and I feel like I have been given tools to lead my life, a life I once had absolutely no idea how to lead.
I am out of depression and doing things that "fear"once had me paralyzed from doing.

Before you comment on how I must be from a very confused background. I want to make it clear that I am a very talented, normal, friendly and good "Bas Yisroel" who went to a very frum school. I grew up in a frum wonderful home and I am married to a solid and Chushav man.

amother

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 11:18 am

OP- All I wanted to say is that I had a pretty positive childhood (no major problems, no depression), but I never heard in all my years of schooling as good an argument against atheism as I heard last night.

Maybe my memory is failing me or I just wasn't listening when it was being offered, but I honestly don't think so. Wink

What bothers me more is that today less and less kids want to do things by rote- (a result of today's generation being spoiled and/or confused, only G-d knows for sure, etc.) which I admit alot of my generation did/does. If they could be told the kind of things that I heard last night, IMHO, we might have less Kids at Risk!

greenfire

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 11:52 am

I hear ya ... I feel ya ...

sometimes however, it is up to us to weed the bad from the good ...

glad you found more clarity in your life ...

"G-d grand me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

Mama Bear

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 2:53 pm

Laura is a religious woman. I caught HER being interviewed by someone on 570AM , WMCA, one evening, about how she found religion. She's Catholic, but it's heartwarming that there are peopl ewho truly believe in HaShem, no matter their religion.

amother

Fri, Oct 26 2007, 3:11 pm

morningstar wrote:

OP, what did you hear that you found so compelling?

I wish I'd be able to get a tape. What hit me most is that the guiding principle for atheists is to "minimize harm" in the world. They're proud of being peace loving. Yet when asked about abortion, even late term, where a baby is fully developed, there is nothing to stop them from suctioning this baby out and crushing it to pieces. After all, some mothers' lives might be harmed by carrying out their pregnancy and delivering a healthy baby, and they want to minimize harm in the world. That made the strongest impression of all.

The atheist tried to make a point that since 9/11 more people are atheists, because they blame 9/11 on religion. He was answered that studies show that the exact opposite is true, there has been a reawakeing and increased interest in religion. Moslem extremism isn't a religion.

It was predicted that as we approach the 20th Century (which we've past), religion would not exist. That prediction turned out to be very far from the truth.

"Accidentally", I very much enjoyed the program. I was taking a bath and didn't want to listen to a Jewish program at that time with singing of Prayer words. embarrassed

Motek

Mon, Oct 29 2007, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

I never heard in all my years of schooling as good an argument against atheism as I heard last night.

Why would you expect to hear an argument against atheism in school? Confused

Talks about emuna, about bitachon, about hashgacha pratis, but an argument against atheism?! what for? in what context would you expect it?

amother

Mon, Oct 29 2007, 10:40 am

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

I never heard in all my years of schooling as good an argument against atheism as I heard last night.

Why would you expect to hear an argument against atheism in school? Confused

Talks about emuna, about bitachon, about hashgacha pratis, but an argument against atheism?! what for? in what context would you expect it?

Are you so naive to think that of the hundreds of thousands of boys/girls that graduate our best schools throughout the world, the thought of doubt about G-d doesn't enter their minds? Mama,leh, it's the thinkers (Sheyod'im Lishol) that don't do things by rote, that are more likely to perhaps at times question, understand and come to a heightened appreciation of their Frumkeit.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 29 2007, 10:42 am

Between having doubts some moments or liking to see things from another pov to needing arguments against atheism, there is a big gap.
Of course these arguments are nice to have! - but imho someone with a solid emuna should be able to "go back on track" on his own.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 29 2007, 10:45 am

Oh, and I think what happens at home it a LOT more important than the best schools, although the best is to have both.
You know, I went to public (= [gentile]) school as the majority of frum kids in "my times" (it's changing nowadays, and due to the low level of public school these years I would not send my dd there) and I don't find we have more emuna problems than those who went to Jewish schools. Even "top" (be it the frummest, or those with the best level) schools.

It all comes from home!

amother

Tue, Oct 30 2007, 2:57 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Oh, and I think what happens at home it a LOT more important than the best schools, although the best is to have both....

It all comes from home!

Never mind with I think what happens at home it (is?) a LOT more important than the best schools AND It all comes from home!.

Hundreds of books have been written on Where was G-d during the Holocaust?, BY PEOPLE OF GROSSLY VARYING LEVELS OF RELIGIOUSITY RANGING FROM THE MOST RELIGIOUS TO ATHEISTS. While learning about the Holocaust, the minority of teens who think, EVEN those from great homes, must analyze this and come to their OWN conclusions!

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 30 2007, 3:24 pm

About the Holocaust, I think it's more about being angry than suddenly losing faith.

Most people will say they don't understand, and I was taught we can't understand.

The real problem is not the lack of answer/we'll know at 120 (after all it works with chok laws!), but the answers that make the teens think "errrr, ok, if the frum people think like that I must be not frum".

People should abstain from stuff like "it's because they sinned" (even the babies??), "it's because they sinned in another life" (if so many people behaved like monsters, we would have noticed it!), "it's because of the Zionists/anti Zionists/Bundists..." (yeah sure).

I discussed it with my rav, how these answers turned people off Judaism, and what I should say if someone asked me. He told me: The Nazis had free choice, because people have free choice. Why G-d allowed it to happen, we will understand at 120. Until then, only a monster would not feel sad or revolted and would be happy with a "human" answer. And to stop there.

Motek

Thu, Nov 01 2007, 2:10 pm

We oppose debates with Holocaust deniers because allowing their voice to be heard gives them a legitimacy. Rather than have a debate between a survivor and a denier in our schools, we tell our children about the war, have them read survivors' accounts and the like.

Likewise, we don't provide arguments against atheism in frum schools. We teach about emuna, tell stories about emuna, etc.

shluchamom

Thu, Nov 01 2007, 2:21 pm

there is sur mayrah and asei tov. Asei tov might be to emphasize emuna sur mayrah might be the arguments against athiesm and holocaust deniers.

I'm NOT saying we should bring such people to our schools to debate but I do feel in todays society whether we want it or not we need to accept that even most of the sheltered kids are still more exposed to these issues and we need to give them solid answers because todays generation is not as kabolos ol as used to be and in the right format need to be explained not only all the emuna and bitachon but also whats wrong with atheism and why its so horrible to have holocaust deniers.

Motek

Thu, Nov 01 2007, 3:03 pm

shluchamom wrote:

not only all the emuna and bitachon but also whats wrong with atheism

since you're a shlucha I'm going to ask you - are you aware of anywhere that the Rebbe says we should teach children what is wrong with atheism?

Quote:

and why its so horrible to have holocaust deniers.

because they're liars?

amother

Thu, Nov 01 2007, 4:35 pm

OP here. I don't recommend inviting Atheists to speak at frum schoools. I do recommend that our teachers should be confidently and properly armed with ammunition as to why being an Atheist doesn't make sense.

We've got the goods- why not use it?

Is there a fear of putting doubt into people's minds? Thinking people have doubts in different degrees.

Again, we have the ammunition. We have no reason to shy away from revealing reasons for Atheism making no sense. We don't need a bumbling Idiot Atheist (the world just evolved......) to convince our kids that it's trashy theory.

amother

Thu, Nov 01 2007, 4:43 pm

Motek wrote:

since you're a shlucha I'm going to ask you - are you aware of anywhere that the Rebbe says we should teach children what is wrong with atheism?

Are you sure the Rebbe never spoke of how to deal with that subject with our youth and on college campuses, etc.? I would think He did.