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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
nachlaot
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 Sun, Feb 04 2018, 4:52 am
it's basic, universal etiquette: the napkin NEVER goes on the table, and it stays on your lap until the meal is over or goes on the chair if you get up to go to the bathroom.
it seems like the majority of people at shabbat meals don't seem to know this. at a table where seating is tight, it's absolutely disgusting when someone is done eating and shoves their wadded up dirty napkin within a few inches of your place. we see this all the time. almost nobody seems to know basic napkin etiquette.
have you noticed this? what explains why so many people do this? I'm not one for silly WASP etiquette rules just for the sake of being prim and proper, but sticking your dirty napkin on the table before you leave is just gross.
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groovy1224
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 5:08 am
I didn't even know there was a napkin etiquette.
Honestly unless the meal is buffalo wild wings, how dirty are these napkins getting? I would find it gross if someone sneezed in their napkin and then threw it at me, sure, but seeing a slightly soiled napkin on the table doesn't repulse me. If anything I'd get annoyed that someone put a dirty napkin on my upholstered dining room chairs..
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Mommy2m
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 5:13 am
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My chairs are a light color cloth material. I would be very upset if someone put a dirty napkin on it and got my chairs dirty because they were following this proper etiquette.
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amother
Powderblue
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 5:18 am
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Iymnok
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 6:09 am
Growing up my father insisted that napkins get tucked in the collar or go on laps. With tznius collars, that was too tight and on my lap it fell as soon as I stood up to help serve. These were cloth napkins.
The table is fine for me. As I get up to go serve, I'll grab my kids dirty napkins an pass out more. Bibs keep shirts clean, even on shabbos.
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justforfun87
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 6:32 am
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You must not be American or from the East Coast because I was always taught the "proper" thing to do when finished a meal is place your napkin on your plate.
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Rachel Shira
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 6:39 am
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I’ve never seen anyone at a Shabbos meal practice “napkin etiquette” and would find it weird if they did. I would not like it if they put their dirty napkins on my dining room chairs. I think the napkins the etiquette books are talking about are cloth napkins or at least large dinner napkins, not the cheapest smallest white paper ones I and many people use. Those don’t seem to belong unfolded on laps.
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 6:43 am
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Sorry didnt know there was. I guess I'll have to look for pigs when my kids are in Shidduchim
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amother
Wine
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 6:48 am
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because no one wants to be so formal unless you're dining with the queen.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 7:38 am
| Rachel Shira wrote: | | I’ve never seen anyone at a Shabbos meal practice “napkin etiquette” and would find it weird if they did. I would not like it if they put their dirty napkins on my dining room chairs. I think the napkins the etiquette books are talking about are cloth napkins or at least large dinner napkins, not the cheapest smallest white paper ones I and many people use. Those don’t seem to belong unfolded on laps. |
I am proud to belong to the almost non-existent tiny group who do practice napkin etiquette! 
This was instilled from childhood and no, I'm not upper class and never was. And what you use as "napkin" that you describe is not a napkin. It's a flimsy tissue that's good for wiping your child's nose. A good napkin is either cloth or a 2 or 3-ply paper napkin, not smaller than 30x30 cm.
Last edited by Bnei Berak 10 on Sun, Feb 04 2018, 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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happyone
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 7:44 am
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At simchas, I place my napkin on lap to protect my clothes. To my dear guests. Please NEVER leave your dirty napkins on my upholstered chairs. Thank you.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 8:05 am
OP, this The Pet Peeve of mine. Table manners.
Sorry to tell you but in Israel 99.9% (regardless if religious or not) don't place napkin on their lap. I have tried and still trying to educate DH in this, he claims it always falls on the floor (which is true if you are in one of the function halls which only have synthetic napkins, they do slip in an instant)
At least I have somewhat succeeded to teach him to put fork and knife together in 4.20 clock position on plate but he still needs reminding. That is also something 99% of Israelis never practice. They have most unfortunately never learned from home.
Table manners don't cost a penny and anyone who wants to learn to eat with style can easily learn it. All it takes is will and a bit of practice. And you can practice without telling anyone. Most ppl will frown on my opinion but the fact is that you definitely see the difference with ppl with table manners and those without. I once was at a Shabbes meal and one of the ladies did eat in the "American style" (which is totally acceptable!) switching fork between right an left hand. I was so impressed, I asked if she had been living in America. she said, no, my mother is American.
Now awaiting the rotten tomatoes to be hurled.
Last edited by Bnei Berak 10 on Sun, Feb 04 2018, 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bnei Berak 10
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 8:13 am
| amother wrote: | | because no one wants to be so formal unless you're dining with the queen. |
You kind of make the word "formal" like something a good Jew should refrain from. I think that's a shame.
Napkin goes on my lap is a standard procedure ingrained from childhood, totally automatic. Even when eating alone at home.
Good table manners does make a difference.
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Raisin
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 9:21 am
I never really heard of this being a thing although I do notice people put napkins on their laps. But I always need napkins to wipe hands, mouths, mop the drink my kid spilled over me...
If you want to get really nice big paper napkins Ikea have great ones.
I'm not sure who table manners make a difference to. Obviously, eating nicely, not putting elbows on table, not using your personal fork to serve from a communal platter - those things DO make a difference. But not putting your fork and knife on the plate when done in a specific way? Not putting a napkin on your lap? Not equipping each guest with the correct type of fish knife or wine glass? (different glasses for white, red and champagne!! Really, only people who either have full time help or serve this type of meal twice a year can manage that) That only affects you and people who actually know about these things.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 9:50 am
| Raisin wrote: | | But not putting your fork and knife on the plate when done in a specific way? Not putting a napkin on your lap? Not equipping each guest with the correct type of fish knife or wine glass? (different glasses for white, red and champagne!! Really, only people who either have full time help or serve this type of meal twice a year can manage that) That only affects you and people who actually know about these things. |
Putting fork and knife together shows you are finished eating (and waitress may take your plate without the extra moment of work to move cutlery together). Seems like a petty thing but for a waitress doing this work moment repeatedly 30-40 times on a function and also asking each guest if they are finished, well, not really fun. This is the subtle language between a guest and waitress/host.
If serving a whole fish: fish fork does faciliate eating very very much. Still not a catastophy if you don't have them.
I personally don't have separate wine glasses for white or red. But I do expect wine to served in a proper wine glass and not in the water glass (always hated it)
Napkin in lap saves your outfit from spilled food and protects the host's chair (some men have the irritating and untzniout way of sitting with their legs wide apart ruining those light coloured chairs with their food droppings) And as said: Napkin belongs on your lap when sitting down. You may not notice, bother or care. And ther are ppl who do notice. It makes a difference in impression. You decide what impression you wish to convey. Your choice.
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relish
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 10:06 am
@bnei brak 10
Do you know of any free resources that can teach me table manners?
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SixOfWands
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 10:07 am
| nachlaot wrote: | it's basic, universal etiquette: the napkin NEVER goes on the table, and it stays on your lap until the meal is over or goes on the chair if you get up to go to the bathroom.
it seems like the majority of people at shabbat meals don't seem to know this. at a table where seating is tight, it's absolutely disgusting when someone is done eating and shoves their wadded up dirty napkin within a few inches of your place. we see this all the time. almost nobody seems to know basic napkin etiquette.
have you noticed this? what explains why so many people do this? I'm not one for silly WASP etiquette rules just for the sake of being prim and proper, but sticking your dirty napkin on the table before you leave is just gross. |
Not only is it not “universal etiquette” to place a used napkin on a chair when one leaves the table, its not “proper” etiquette as I learned it:
| Quote: |
Place the napkin to the side when you get up during the meal. If you need to excuse yourself from the table, you should use one hand to pick it up and then loosely fold the napkin, placing it to the left or right of your plate. There is no need to refold your napkin, but try not to crumple it or make it into a ball. Never leave the napkin on the chair or allow it to drop on the floor. |
https://www.thespruce.com/napk.....16963
If my napkin were disgusting and dirty, I’d probably remove it from the table and ask for a new one rather than leaving it on the table. But usually I just fold it so that any food stains are on the inside.
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Blessing1
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 10:18 am
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Bnei Brak 10 & OP you are 1 in a million! Literally
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amother
Brown
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 11:16 am
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To me this kind of ettiquette can be expected at formal occasions like weddings, but at a Shabbos meal? Unless you're having very small, formal affairs, with adults only... it's hard to picture.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Sun, Feb 04 2018, 11:25 am
| relish wrote: | @bnei brak 10
Do you know of any free resources that can teach me table manners? |
Simply google, there should be plenty of them, for example ItsAllAboutEtiquette.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_YVjEZ1zc
Also on Youtube.
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