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amother

Navy

Fri, Feb 09 2018, 11:59 am

I have had a lot of anger at Hashem and I have done some really terrible sins. I never daven and I don't do mitzvos or work on myself.

But at the same time, I'll thank Him when I find my keys right away, or get a green light, or any of the million little things that go well.

When I was younger, I felt like He was so punitive and I would go to hell for not wearing socks. Now that is laughable as I do things way worse than that, but I altered my view. If I believed that He is out to punish me for everything, there is no way I'd have a relationship with Him. Instead I see that He loves me, regardless of how I behave, and He appreciates what I do do. I used to think "why would Hashem want me to talk to Him if I do so many things wrong?" But now I don't believe that sinners can't connect. If I ch"v had a child of mine doing terrible things that I didn't approve of, I would still appreciate if they thanked me for the little things or spoke to me about their day. Of course I am hurt and upset at their behavior - but they are still my child who I love.

I do still get angry at Hashem. But I also talk to Him about the good.
I don't think I'll ever officially daven and connect how I should, but I do what works for me.

momnaturally

Fri, Feb 09 2018, 12:21 pm

amother wrote:

Do you wish you could get to that point where you could daven and connect fully with Hashem ?
If yes that can be your davening. Not a siddur davening. Rather your own tefilla in your own words english,Yiddish whatever...
telling Hashem how you feel about your current relationship and where you wish it would be....

amother

Saddlebrown

Fri, Feb 09 2018, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

I have lost my faith in god. Ive had a lot of suffering over the years, big and small things. I havent davened to god in years. I yell st him a lot during my day. I do thank god for the small good things I see every now and then. So I would say my relationship with god is one of extreme anger and not connected at all to anything religious at all (havent benched in a while, dont cover as much hair as I used to). Its what I have to do to get through each day.

OP here. I think it’s beautiful actually that you are able to say thank you for whatever small good things you experience, even despite all of your suffering. That’s a high level in itself.

I don’t buy into the concept of one-size-fits-all religiously and spiritually. We each have a different set of circumstances and struggles. I would hope that means Hashem has different expectations of each of us. If a person is strong in chesed then Hashem might expect a high level of chesed from them. But if that sane person struggles with tznius then I would imagine Hashem would accept every “small” effort to observe tznius with love and pride.

You say your relationship with Hashem is one of extreme anger and that you express that anger to Him. That is also a high level. When I feel that way, angry at Hashem, I have great difficulty saying ANYTHING to Him. Anything at all. Your expression of anger, in my view, is a huge, huge positive and I wish I could follow suit during my painful moments. An angry relationship is still a relationship.

You say you lost faith, but your actions, words, and tefillos say otherwise. You are reaching out in the only ways you know. Maybe performing certain physical mitzvos and davening and benching are ideal, but Hashem is so much kinder than that. I truly believe He meets each of us where we are.

I don’t claim to understand or even guess anything about the meaning or purpose in suffering - your suffering or mine or anyone else’s. But I do believe that Hashem is with us in our suffering and that he hurts along with us. And if the only prayers we can offer during our painful moments arecprayers of anger and disgust, then I believe Hashem accepts those prayers with love. They might not be the type of prayers we were raised to value, but they are heartfelt and true.

I hope you find healing and hope very soon.

Good Shabbos.

shoshanim999

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 6:43 pm

I don't understand the idea of having a "relationship" with hashem. A relationship is based on mutual understanding, and expectations. (And some other things.) A husband/wife, boss/employee, parent/child, teacher/student, all have expectations of what is expected of BOTH people in the relationship. If a spouse is warm, caring, and giving, it is expected that the other spouse will reciprocate and help create a happy environment. If an employee comes everyday, works hard, stays late when necessary, it is expected the boss will be fair and pay accordingly. We have expectations of teachers and students and expect each to act a certain way based on how the other is acting in the relationship. With hashem, the Torah is our guide so we know what to do. However, it's not a relationship because we can't have any expectation of hashem in this world. Yes, we expect in the next world, Torah observant Jews will be rewarded. Since in this world we have ZERO expectation of how hashem will respond to us whether the person is the biggest tzaddik or the opposite, it's difficult to call this a real "relationship". How can a relationship only have expectations on one side and not the other? It can't.

amother

Sapphire

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 7:05 pm

Well a while ago I heard a shiur where the speaker said that you an daven to Hashem by saying

"Hello Hashem. Help!".

And I did that for a while. But it's not a great way for me. Then just a couple of weeks ago I heard a better way for davening in a crisis

"Hashem please help me get through this with my emunah intact".

I updated it a bit to be

"Hashem please let me get through this without messing up and with my emunah intact".

I'm trying to say this every time I feel like I can't cope. When I say it I totally don't believe it, but I say it anyway and hope that it will work to get me through it.

About teshuva. OP I think when you tell yourself that Hashem may not forgive you because you haven't done proper teshuva is just your yetzer hara working overtime to get you down.

icebreaker

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 7:15 pm

My relationship with Hashem is evolving. It’s been taking me a lot of time, davening, questioning, and more to get to where I am today. I believe Hashem is forgiving, He knows we as humans are not perfect, He knows we struggle, and He interferes when He feels is right. That interference is different for everyone. So right now, every struggle I’ve been through, He’s been there right next to me guiding me where He believes I need to go.

shoshanim999

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 7:37 pm

cozyblanket wrote:

Re: the OP, I tell Hashem I am in the palm of his hand as is my family. Ask Him to please protect us and guide us because we are completely in HIS hands.

Re: your second post... that type of situation would have long-term effects on relationships with people. But Hashem is not like that. We know that He is all-powerful. One of HIS powers is to be able to completely heal the relationship between Him and and individual following teshuva. Hashem loves you and the power of Teshuva is that you really can erase what you've done. I don't see things I chose in the past as affecting relationship with Hashem a negative way in the present.

Is it your expectation of hashem that since you are acknowledging his complete power and control of your fate as well as that of your family, that he will therefore protect all of you? What is hashem's role in this relationship since you are doing your best to do your part?

amother

Mustard

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 10:43 pm

I relate a lot to Hashem as my father. Sometimes I cry to Him about things I’m going through that are hard for me and I talk to Him all the time and say Hashem you are my father help me. I also thank him for everything I have as much as I can and I teach my children to do the same
I tell my kids that when they have a lockdown at school the most important thing to remember is to daven to Hashem because He is the only One that can help them. And I tell them to tell their friends this.
I often hear my kids davening to Hashem in their own words when they want / need something. And I am conscious to say things in front of them like please Hashem help us find a parking spot so that they are aware that even things like parking spots come from Hashem.

yksraya

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 11:38 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Oh how we all have expectations! Hashem gives us so so many things we wish for and many many extras.
We don't "always" get what we want, but we get so much more then we give, even in this world!

Yes, we do suffer pain and we don't have the answers why. This can make it hard to have a relationship. But the more we try to build the relationship, the easier it gets to find yad hashem in our day to day life.

Op, you have mentioned you keep doing teshuva as a connection. Teshuva is something that needs to take only a few min. It has only 3 steps
1. Admit
2. Regret
3. Kabala al h'asid- a solution for next time it shouldn't happen again.

If the sin is something bein adam l'chveiro, you first need to ask forgiveness from the one you wronged.

Hashem knows we are human and that we make mistakes. Had he wanted us to be perfect, he would've created us melachim. He wants us to serve him happily with our flaws. Accept ourselves the way we are, with all our weaknesses. And try our best to do good. Learn from our mistakes and move on.

shoshanim999

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 11:42 pm

yksraya wrote:

[u]

But how do we build a relationship with hashem? What is our expectation of him?

yksraya

Sat, Feb 10 2018, 11:54 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

[u]

But how do we build a relationship with hashem? What is our expectation of him?

When we daven, we ask of him so so much! And even just when we want anything. We ask hashem help in everything and anything. We can't do anything without him. And wether we are religious or not. Wether we do what we assume he expects of us or not. He gives us life, food, shelter, and wtvr it is we have.

On a day to day level, when you go shopping, you expect to find something nice. Even if you are unaware that you expect it from hashem, really you do. Who else makes us find the things we need or want? And so is with anything and everything we have or that happens to us. Who protects us when we cross the street? We have so so many expectations from him, most of which seem so normal that we think it belongs this way, I deserve it, I worked for it etc. But really it's chessed hashem every min of every day. Even during a nisayon, we have so much to be thankful for.

yksraya

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 12:00 am

Oh and how to build a relationship: davening, saying baruch hashem, thank you hashem, making a list of things you can be thankful for. Finding the yad hashem in day to day life. And much much more.

A relationship is not about expectations. When we expect to much, we only get disappointed. Take shalom bayis for example, if we have a whole lot of expectations, but the dh is not capable or not willing to do just what our whim is, we will only be disappointed and it will not do good to the relationship.

With hashem, we come with alot of expectations. But he knows the best what we really need (based on our tikkun). He does want to give us everything we want. And many many of the things we want, he does give us, especially if we daven for it. But not always are the results exactly as we wanted.

momnaturally

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 12:03 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

I totally disagree on 2 levels.
1. We can have a relationship with Hashem of appreciation for all he does for us and will do for us and we do the best we can to do for him what he asks of us in return.
2. We can have a relationship of expectation as well with Hashem too ! Hashem wants us to do mitzvos and daven. He can't expect that of us if we are not able to physically and emotionally. So we can expect of him to provide that for us so we can do what he expects of us. (as long as we are truly honest with what our needs are and what is really excessive desires). Many seforim translate bitachon to mean reliance on Hashem.

The fact that in davening we constantly refer to Hashem as our father means we are supposed to view him that way and relate to him in that way. I would find Judaism very cold and quite rough if there was no relationship with hashem.
I mean honestly my davening would not be ever meaningful rather just like reading a book if there was no relationship to be had...

yksraya

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 12:08 am

momnaturally wrote:

Well said!
In reality we have more expectations from hashem then from any human relationship. (and rightfully so)

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 8:34 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Sure, we have expectations of our spouses. But once the basic respect, trust, and love are there, we focus less on the expectations of what we get and more on what we can give. This is the challenge of the relationship with Hashem, because we don't see what we think are reasonable expectations - health, parnasa, etc. - constantly being filled the way we're sure we need them.

Serving Hashem as an eved vs. a child is no small thing. Moshe Rabbeinu was called eved ne'eman. Halevai I should get there. Yet I still want to serve out of love. Again, this is the challenge. For some people they can look at the davening - pesukei d'zimra, birchas hashachar, etc. - and so clearly see how much Hashem has given and continues to give and they feel that love and security and can start to love back. Others will say, I'm trying to get there, meanwhile since I do believe, I can focus more on the flip side of the service of ahava, making Hashem beloved through my actions as His representative in this world.

I say to everyone keep on davening. You have trouble believing that Hashem Elokeichem emes and the rest of the affirmations that follow (yatziv, nachon, etc.)? Daven that you should feel it. Daven that your children should feel it. Wanting spirituality, even wanting to want spirituality is a great keli for the bracha to come through.

shoshanim999

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 11:25 am

momnaturally wrote:

I am incredibly grateful of all hashem has given me. My problem is that my relationship with hashem is based on fear. I fear hashem because he seems to be very cruel to various people in a very indiscriminate manner. Nobody knows who tragedy will strike. Tzaddikim, reshaim, it's all the same. People who daven, people who don't daven, all the same. So while I'm thankful for what I have, do I trust hashem like I would my father? Honestly, do you? You would be lying if you said you did. There's no reason for you to trust hashem like you do a parent. Look to your right and left and people are suffering. Why did he spare you? You have absolutely positively no idea. My neighbor has several teenage daughters that are constantly involved in chessed. I see this and I have tremendous admiration for them. If I were to see them doing chessed for some people but cursing and being disrespectful to others, what do you think my opinion would be? Would I trust them because they are good to some? Of course not. I would sum it up by concluding that these girls are unpredictable and best stay away. How can I deny the pain of my friend and say that I trust hashem? Do you honestly have faith in hashem that tragedy will not strike you? Why? The only conclusion is that in this world there are no answers. We simply don't understand him. This is a far cry from trusting and having faith in him. Hashem is our god and we most follow the torah. But please explain to me how to have faith in hashem as we do a parent.

Optimystic

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 2:09 pm

amother wrote:

Im following this thread...im really struggling with my relationship with Hashem at the moment. I wish it was better. I just dont know what to do. Going through infertility and its making me feel so alone. I really tried yesterday. My davening is out the window but yesterday I decided to try and daven mincha...it was hopeless my connection is just not there anymore..

I thought I had an answer to this, and it wasn't coming out the way I thought. After thinking and rereading your post, I thought of 'The righteous stumbles seven times and rises again.'

The connection you had seems gone, and if it feels like you are starting from scratch, then maybe it is gone to allow for a new, deeper connection. I can only tell you where I think my relationship is right now:

What I wanted most was to marry young and be married to that person my whole life. And I just presumed it would happen because I felt I wanted it more than those around me. And I let my life revolve around that one person even before I met him and ever since. I excused my self-centeredness by saying, well, I'm shy. I am an introvert. I don't have to be that social or think so much about those outside the family I wanted to create for myself.

Hashem had to take him away before I could really truly love the people around me. That I had a part in deserving the course my life has taken has been very hard for me to accept.

And so, sometimes, I can honestly feel that I had a part in bringing about where I am, and having endured the pain I can also experience the joy of loving those around me in a way I could not have if I had been allowed to go on the course I wanted. (And the course that so many other people seem to get with fewer obstacles.)

At other times, I'm angry. And I say I am angry at the various people and institutions that put unreasonable obstacles in my way, but really, who are they that I should be angry at them? My anger is at Hashem for being so unreasonable and cryptic and taking away so much.

And so, I guess where I am now is just trying to be completely honest. Thankful when I feel thankful, angry when I feel angry, pleading when I feel scared or especially lonely. Whatever it is, it is. Hashem knows me better than I do, and He will let me have my tantrums and my ego and whatever else it is I need to feel in that moment.

So, keep davening. Sometimes for me it is like getting through writer's block. I just have to push through it knowing that everything will start up again eventually.

Optimystic

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 2:15 pm

OP wrote:

Thank you for sharing, that’s really beautiful. I try to do the same thing. This might be more of a question for a rabbi but what do you think someone’s relationship with Hashem should be like following a string of ridiculously bad choices against Halacha with ongoing damage? Things that can’t be fixed easily, some of them not at all. Can that person ever have a “normal” relationship with Hashem, or is that person’s “normal” going to be inherently different and changed from then on?

After a class a few years ago, a couple asked the rabbi about something awful they did long ago, and he said that you do not have to feel bad for it for more than one moment. As I remember it, once you are truly sorry for a bad choice, it is a mitzvah to not feel bad for it ever again.

You can only control you right now at this moment. The rest of the world, including your past choices, is part of the world you are in now, but it is not in your control.

So, your life's circumstances can be very different because of past choices, and you may have a somewhat different set of responsibilities, but your relationship with Hashem can still be exactly the loving relationship you were always meant to have.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 2:36 pm

Optimystic wrote:

Wow thank you! This is so beautiful and so encouraging. Thank you.

mandksima

Sun, Feb 11 2018, 3:18 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

I trust Hashem way more than I ever could a parent. A parent can act with unbridled anger and ego. They can be selfish and vengeful. We are assured everything Hashem does is good. When you accept how little, we as humans, can see the outward physical manifestations of things in our short sighted way, we are totally trusting Hashem and his kindness and fairness to make our lives work out exactly how we need it to. We are like a baby in a mother's arms who will die if not fed and taken care of. We make our little decisions but we are totally dependent on Hashem for our every breath. Since Hashem is partly in us and partly in the air we breathe, we are actually breathing Him in every moment. Without that constant chessed from Hashem, we would all cease to exist.

This life we know is only one of many lives we have lived. Each reincarnation fixes previous mistakes and reaps rewards from previous good deeds. The Baal Shem Tov would often explain how things worked in a current life to make things straight from a previous one. I read a story last week where the Maggid of Mezdritch asked the Baal Shem Tov to explain how monetary laws are related to reincarnation so he had him witness the following story - there was a man riding a horse who stopped at a tree to rest and left his wallet behind as he left. Another man comes by, sees the wallet, takes it and leaves. A next character comes by -a poor and exhausted man and he lays down to rest. The first rider returns and demands the wallet from the sleeping innocent man. He doesn't know anything about it but the rider beats him up. The Baal Shem Tov explains what really happened here. In a previous life the rider owed the second man a certain sum but refused to pay so he was paid back now. The "innocent" man was the rabbi who the two first men went to in order to work out their monetary dispute but the rabbi didn't investigate well enough and dismissed the case. Since he was negligent, he was punished in this life. Now everything was evened out middah kneged middah. We are not able to look at the world and understand how everything that happens, even to seemingly innocent people, is justified but we trust Hashem that it is and we know that someday, when our judgement day comes, we will be shown how everything that happened in our life was just and good and that Hashem only performed kindness for us. Our souls need to strive for perfection, Hashem gives us the opportunity to do it in each life we are in. It is our choice to attempt to finish our soul's rectification in one life or keep coming back. The more trust we have in Hashem, the quicker we will achieve our goal. It doesn't help anyone to not trust Hashem. Even our suffering has its purpose and we would realize how we need it when everything becomes clear in the end. That's why tzaddikim accept their pain and suffering with the same joy as their joyful moments, because they know and accept it all as love and chessed from Hashem in perfecting their soul so they can get to Hashem's throne sooner and revel in the ultimate pleasure of being a perfect soul near Him.

Tragedy is a difficult challenge but if you have had any, be assured that Hashem has sent it as a kindness in some way that you can't understand yet. I always hear of stories from people who have gone through terrible tragedies (one comes to mind where a man lost 2 limbs) and they say after time has gone by that if they had the chance to choose their fate, they would not wish to have the tragedy never happen because it was only because of this tragedy that they were able to achieve life altering goals and they would rather a life with pain and hardship where they were able to rise above it than a easier, happier life where they would not have had the push to make themselves work as hard as they did. Only trust and positivity can get a person to see over their difficulties and still strive for the best outcome. If you are poor in this life, your soul picked it out because he knew he couldn't achieve the proper work to rectify himself if he had an easy rich life. Your soul picks your parents as well so for all those who suffered difficulties with their parents, this was also the choice chosen by your soul who knows what your role is in this current life and what it needed to reach perfection.

I suppose everybody doesn't believe in reincarnation but I don't see how they can understand a thing in this world without this basic idea. It just makes everything make sense with our limited understanding and gives us the strength to trudge on. We have lots of stories from our tzaddikim to help us realize how short this life is and how if we focus on what our soul needs, instead of what gives us pleasure in this life, we will be able to succeed.

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