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amother




Bisque


Post  Sun, Feb 11 2018, 6:41 pm
Is it permissible to use the British flag motif in a Purim English themed presentation? Is it considered a religious symbol and if yes does it border on avodeh Zoreh or did it come to symbolize something purely nationalistic?
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Metukah









  


Post  Sun, Feb 11 2018, 6:49 pm
I'm British and live in Britain and AFAIK the flag has no religious basis.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Sun, Feb 11 2018, 7:33 pm
DH is British, and Lubavitch. He has no problem whatsoever with his country's flag.

Honestly, sometimes I think that people read into things stuff that is not there. DD told me that she wasn't allowed to use the + sign in math, because it looked like a cross. You have to wonder what they did for a lower case "t". Rolling Eyes

Can't people just be normal?
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agreer









  


Post  Sun, Feb 11 2018, 9:58 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
DH is British, and Lubavitch. He has no problem whatsoever with his country's flag.

Honestly, sometimes I think that people read into things stuff that is not there. DD told me that she wasn't allowed to use the + sign in math, because it looked like a cross. You have to wonder what they did for a lower case "t". Rolling Eyes

Can't people just be normal?


They started writing the lower case "t" with a little tail on the bottom - like the "t" you see on the screen. So it's like a small backwards j with a line through it.

And yes...completely unnecessary.
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oliveoil









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:10 am
amother wrote:
Is it permissible to use the British flag motif in a Purim English themed presentation? Is it considered a religious symbol and if yes does it border on avodeh Zoreh or did it come to symbolize something purely nationalistic?


what on earth will people come up with next??
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:24 am
oliveoil wrote:
what on earth will people come up with next??
oh so many different crazy new things pop up every single day Rolling Eyes Mad
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Iymnok









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:31 am
In the chareidi schools, the plus sign looks like an upside down T. The lowercase t is curved at the bottom like in many fonts. They see it like an upside down f.
They do that, it's fine. Why does it bother you?

Many Jews like to stay away from religious symbols of other religions. So this is a valid question.
(Personally, the Jolly Jack bothers me more)
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:44 am
Iymnok wrote:
In the chareidi schools, the plus sign looks like an upside down T. The lowercase t is curved at the bottom like in many fonts. They see it like an upside down f.
They do that, it's fine. Why does it bother you?

Many Jews like to stay away from religious symbols of other religions. So this is a valid question.
(Personally, the Jolly Jack bothers me more)


It bothers me, because mathematical symbols and English letters have nothing to do with Xian religions. It's just more silliness.

Muslims invented algebra, can we ban that all together? That would make DD very happy.

Oh, and Hebrew is based on ancient Sumerian cuneform, and we all know what idol worshipers they were.
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chanchy123









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:48 am
agreer wrote:
They started writing the lower case "t" with a little tail on the bottom - like the "t" you see on the screen. So it's like a small backwards j with a line through it.

And yes...completely unnecessary.


I was taught that way. My English teacher (s?) would correct anyone who made a cross. I still write that most of the time. American teachers MO/jpf in Israel in the eighties.

And if course a plus was always an upside down kamatz, which was in mainstream (religious public not Charedi) Israeli school system. And yes we were given this as a reason.
I think in Israel people are more sensitive to crosses.
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DrMom









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:54 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
It bothers me, because mathematical symbols and English letters have nothing to do with Xian religions. It's just more silliness.

Muslims invented algebra, can we ban that all together? That would make DD very happy.

Oh, and Hebrew is based on ancient Sumerian cuneform, and we all know what idol worshipers they were.

And let's not forget that Hebrew months are named after Babylonian pagan gods. Why do we still use those?

Let's clean up our own house first.
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etky









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 4:58 am
The Union Jack incorporates the cross of St. George, the patron saint of England, so yes, there is a religious connotation to the flag even if it has been superceded by nationalistic significance.
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chanchy123









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 5:02 am
There is an obvious difference. The cross itself is a religious symbol and carries religious meaning. Obviously, not in all X-stian sects, but by many.

When my seventh grade (or maybe it was eight grade) teacher didn't let us use kristmas (will that pass the imamother censor?) in class and made us use X-mas in class because the word Kreist carries religious meaning we thought she was being ridiculous.

Now, I'm going to have to check my kids workbooks to see if they have plus or upside down kamatz like we did.
In elementary school it was a kamatz - in high school it was a cross. Same school system BTW.
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chanchy123









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 5:03 am
DrMom wrote:
And let's not forget that Hebrew months are named after Babylonian pagan gods. Why do we still use those?

Let's clean up our own house first.


But those gods are no longer worshiped.
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etky









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 5:11 am
chanchy123 wrote:
But those gods are no longer worshiped.


If I'm not mistaken, only Tammuz is a blantant reference to a deity (see sefer Yechezkel). The other names are derived from Babylonian words - some of them relating to the season of the year.
In any case, the Babylonian names of the month are used in Tanach, in the post-exilic works, so I suppose that that sanctions them and gives them some standing.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 5:13 am
As far as I know, no one has ever committed avoda zora by adding one plus one.

Please correct me if you know of any cases. (Sources, natch.)
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MitzadSheini









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 5:40 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
As far as I know, no one has ever committed avoda zora by adding one plus one.

Please correct me if you know of any cases. (Sources, natch.)


Well -

ה' אחד ושמו אחד

So maybe 1 + 1 = 1?

Or 1 + 1 = 2

But

1 T 1 = 1

(I can't find an upside down T on my keyboard)

(yeah I'm just kinda being silly)
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Zeleze









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 6:17 am
Never hear so, it's a plain emblem
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invisiblecircus









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 6:45 am
etky wrote:
The Union Jack incorporates the cross of St. George, the patron saint of England


AND the cross of St. Andrew, the patron saint of Scotland, AND the cross of St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland! Shocked Shocked Shocked

And you know they have no separation of church and state in the United Kingdom? Exclamation

MitzadSheini wrote:
1 T 1 = 1

( can't find an upside down T on my keyboard)


Your keyboard isn't kosher! Shocked Wink
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etky









  


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 6:53 am
invisiblecircus wrote:
: And you know they have no separation of church and state in the United Kingdom? Exclamation


Doesn't help that the head of state is also the head of the national church....
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amother




Bisque


Post  Mon, Feb 12 2018, 7:23 am
etky wrote:
The Union Jack incorporates the cross of St. George, the patron saint of England, so yes, there is a religious connotation to the flag even if it has been superceded by nationalistic significance.


And this is what I came across as well, hence the question. So.... with that bit of history, has the flag come to mean something purely nationalistic or is it still viewed as a religious symbol and this would be problematic halachically...
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