S/O Florida school shooting, do we jail shooters' parents?

Mevater

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:54 am

"There's no way Joe and Jane Doe are going to twiddle their thumbs while their son posts images of himself online with weapons. Especially if they had to go to jail too! Yes! They MUST take responsibility!

In communities where parents take an active role in parenting, there are suicides rather than mass shootings. Because there are troubled children. But killing others without remorse in cold blood?!? "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are many troubled children who have the potential to go on a rampage and kill many, but most "troubled children" dont.

Do parents of troubled children really have control of what these troubled children will do?

If we're going to go that route, perhaps we should jail these teens' mental health professionals too? Theyre the ones managing the teens' medication and should be able, as professionals, to assess the teens' potential for acting on their aggressive thoughts and actually orchestrating a mass shooting even more than the teens' parents?

Can anyone, parents, professionals or anyone else, predict with certainty which children will become mass shooters?

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 8:59 am

But its not just teens. what about the awful shooting in las vegas in october. That man was on no meds and it was said that at least public knowledge was that he had no actual mental health issues.
So it is not always on parents. And parents dont always know what their children are up to at all. Its unfortunate, but there are other ways of having these awful shootings not happen as well. But america doesnt seem to want to go that way.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:01 am

The Florida shooter is 19. He's an adult, and responsible for his own decisions.

Having a troubled child is extremely difficult, and even highly educated parents with access to the best early intervention and treatment can still have kids who are just plain "wired wrong".

If you really want to play it safe, create a detainment camp for all kids who show any sign of being troubled, whatsoever. I have no idea when they would age out of the camp, maybe never. Maybe they'd be so damaged from camp life that they'll never be reintegrated into society.

But hey, the normals will be safe, so the end justifies the means.

Sorry, but I am so heartbroken over this. I'm probably not even making sense. On one hand, I have a difficult child. On the other hand, if she were a victim of a shooting CVS...

Oy. There are no answers. All we can do is daven. Crying

WhatFor

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:05 am

Also, other first world countries also have very troubled teens, they just don't have 18 school shootings within 6 weeks. It's probably less about parenting and more about something else.... Gee... Can't put my finger on it.

Jewishfoodie

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:09 am

I think we're talking to a larger issue here. Many children, not "troubled" in the conventional way, have brought weapons to Scholls. Children of all races and denominations.

The kids were chastised.

But if parents had to take responsibility for what their kids did, (this is talking about violent crimes against humanity) they themselves would turn their kids in thereby saving the lives of countless people.

Think. If your school made a rule that your kid can't come with candy. And your kid came with candy, EVEN UNBEKNOWNST to you! And you and your husband got called down to school and speeches by the head of staff there, what's the first thing you do when you get home?

Yup. You make darn sure it is never going to happen again.

Yes. I know there are sick people out there. Get the cops involved if you have to. If your child MIGHT kill someone, warn someone! Even if he's 35!

Jewishfoodie

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:15 am

Please stop giving all parents a free pass to ignore that they have kids!

I've seen so many special parents in my lifetime, literally sacrificing their own menuchas hadaas just to get their children the appropriate care they needed. They've put their kids in special schools. They've hired special tutors, mentors and help with money they don't even have! They sacrifice every luxury in life just so their kids get the best care possible.

What about all the other parents? Why do their kids deserve less? If your child purposely kills a pet, your child needs to be put in an environment where he's taught to value life.

Nobody is born a mass murderer!

If you see something, say something! Please!

Mevater

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:21 am

Jewishfoodie wrote:

Nobody is born a mass murderer!

If you see something, say something! Please!

If we'd lock up every child with anger issues and potential to murder, wed have a good fraction of the teen population in jail, at our tax dollar. If you want to do that, forget funding for programs for food and housing subsidy the needy.

Theres only so much every tax dollar can be stretched.

If programs to feed and house the needy were cut to allow for jailing all teens with potential to kill, we'd have more hungry homeless people, leading to more very angry people with potential to kill.

Last edited by Mevater on Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total

greenfire

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:23 am

Anybody really can be explosive - but human nature would have us logically control ourselves for the most part. Do you really believe parents know if/when their children will snap ?!?!?! All they can do is encourage therapeutic means & pray they survive their own inner battles ...

Jewishfoodie

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:27 am

Mevater wrote:

But I didn't say "lock up". We need to get the kids the help they need. These programs are already in place. Parents just dont care. Because they don't consider their kids a reflection of them. But if they HAD to car, because they would be fined or punished, oh man, they would care.

Imagine a parent getting a $400 ticket because her 4th grader came to school with a knife.

That kid won't be touching a knife anytime soon.
Because punishments work.

Its why we don't change lanes and cross a double white line in traffic. Because punishments work.

Mevater

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:33 am

Jewishfoodie wrote:

Imagine a parent getting a $400 ticket because her 4th grader came to school with a knife.

That kid won't be touching a knife anytime soon.
Because punishments work.

Not so sure. Kids are very resourceful and will find a way to commit murder.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:34 am

No way!!!

As a mother of an explosive difficult child I'm suffering enough. I don't have to punished more

Do you think my kid is going to listen to me if I tell them not to put something on Facebook? Do you think he will discuss it with me if I sense danger in what posted?

Do you know how much money and effort I spent on therapists and other such experts getting no results or techniques to have him change?

The Torah explicitly says that parents may not be killed for their children's crimes.

Jewishfoodie

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:39 am

amother wrote:

No way!!!

As a mother of an explosive difficult child I'm suffering enough. I don't have to punished more

Do you think my kid is going to listen to me if I tell them not to put something on Facebook?

Do you know how much money and effort I spent on therapists and other such experts getting no results or techniques to have him change?

The Torah explicitly says that parents may not be killed for their children's crimes.

Killed!? Who said killed! All I said was parents must know their kids. And take care of them. Or get fined when their kids bring weapons to school. Or be jailed if their child kills 17 people. Responsibility. That's what we're advocating for. If your child is showing signs of dangerous habits, report them!

Do you know how many Homeland Security tips come from parents?? Thank Hashem for that!

leah233

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:47 am

Jewishfoodie wrote:

The only way to justifiably punish a parent for a crime their child committed, is if they KNEW the child the child was going to do it but made no efforts to prevent it. Or worse if they aided him in some way.

Reporting a child showing "signs of dangerous habits" to the government will very likely make a bad situation worse. If the child had no evil intent he will now probably resent his parents and the government to the point of them totally losing him.

Raisin

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:59 am

WhatFor wrote:

baffling, isn't it? Lets get Sherlock Holmes on the case.

Mevater

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:06 am

Raisin wrote:

baffling, isn't it? Lets get Sherlock Holmes on the case.

Can you be specific?

Can you recommend anything other than gun control, where criminals will find a way to get guns, because they'll be sold behind the scenes, like drugs?

Who are we kidding?

If theres money to be made, lots of people will sell lots of guns illegally.

SixOfWands

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:18 am

Mevater wrote:

The elephant in the room. Let's not consider gun control. Nooooooooo. We can't do that.

Well, then, stop complaining. We will continue to have school massacres at the rate of two per week. Because no one really cares enough to do anything about it.

dancingqueen

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:27 am

I do think there was negligence at least in the sandy hook situation, where the mom had a ton of guns and taught her extremely troubled child how to shoot them. In the end he killed her too so it was moot.

SixOfWands

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:31 am

We know two things.

First, the AR-15 that this murderer used was legally purchased by him.

Second, in September, this murderer was reported to the FBI for saying that he wanted to be a "professional school shooter."

Now, there are two possibilities. One, he purchased it AFTER the report to the FBI. Or two, he already owned it at the time of the report, but there is no legal way to confiscate the weapon.

But we'll keep sending out "thoughts and prayers." Come up with increasingly ridiculous ideas, like punishing parents who, in many cases, have tried to get their children help, but couldn't. But never address the pervasive gun culture, or mental health issues (although the vast, vast majority of people with mental health issues don't pose a danger to anyone). And learn to live with an average of two school shootings a week.

Raisin

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:33 am

Mevater wrote:

You don't have to believe me. Look at (western) countries that did introduce gun control. Sure, gun deaths still occur, but at much much lower numbers. I live in a western country with gun control laws and this type of attack is literally unheard of. The only gun deaths here are caused by criminals, fueled by drugs. (or rarely, political/terror related) People can shoot for sport if they want to, but they need to join a club to do so.

Many of these shooting sprees in the USA are committed by teens and young adults. They may not have criminal connections to get an illegal gun, but they can easily go and get one in walmart, or from their mommy's gun collection.

Also, even pro gun people are saying that there is no need for this specific type of gun to be available.

I believe some countries have some type of gun amnesty or buy back scheme to remove guns from the market.