Dh struggling with proof of Torah

Maya

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:31 pm

I'm not going to derail this thread with a back and forth. I just wanted to call you out on the way you literally told a poster to keep her opinions to herself. It's not okay to do that. We all have a right to express ourselves as we see fit, as long as it's according to the rules of this site.

Simple1

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:40 pm

Maya wrote:

She should find someone knowledgeable IRL to share her thoughts with. I don't think it belongs on a public frum social forum. You will probably disagree with me.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Maya, she was not talking about archeological proof. There is PLENTY of archeological proof, so I see that you have no idea what you are talking about. And no, it is NOT okay to appreciate the "frum lifestyle", as you put it, and have doubts in emunah. Not okay at all. And I am completely NOT afraid to hear them, I just think that what she wrote is COMPLETEY misleading, and not true at all. She wasn't talking about archeological proofs, she went off on her own tangent.

And... I have just as much of a right to post my response as she has to post her ideas.

I would demur that many of us have doubts in emunah from time to time, just like we have doubts about other things in many areas of our lives. Having doubts in emunah does not negate that emunah, and it doesn't mean you're not okay. It should serve as an impetus for further learning and growth.

This can lead to even greater heights and a deeper understanding of Judaism and one's relationship with Hashem. As long as it's approached from a genuine attitude of wanting to know, as opposed to a deliberately cynical approach that's out to disprove anything and everything.

Mommyg8

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 5:54 pm

Maya wrote:

It's not ok according to the rules of this site. AND she COMPLETELY de-railed the topic for her own agenda, and this is NOT ok. And I called her out for saying something that is NOT TRUE.

The reason why you can't go back and forth is because you have no information.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 6:22 pm

amother wrote:

I used to look to find concrete proofs the Torah is legit. I thought that if I talk to smart people that accept the Torah they will explain what they understand to me and then I'll understand as well. I was mistaken. There is no indisputable concrete proof. All the proofs have holes in them. It's up to us to accept the proofs as is and not think about them to much. If your dh digs to deep he will be disappointed. Just appreciate the frum lifestyle and all it offers. Don't expect to really understand things.

I think you're partially right, in the sense that Hashem intentionally created and runs the world in a way such that His presence and involvement in our lives is currently hidden.

We don't have nevuah anymore, and there are things we need to accept on faith. This is what galus is about.

Otoh, I also think it's a mistake of intellectual honesty for a searching person to reach any conclusions without first learning in depth many of the great classic works on emunah, many of which need to be studied along with their own mefarshim.

amother

Lime

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 6:28 pm

There is archeological evidence. I wrote a paper on the biblical account of the fall of Jericho and proof of it through archeological findings. If you want it let me know.
Also how smart and intellectual is he? That makes a big difference and impacts the angle he’s coming from.
If he’s the academic type, I strongly advise him to read Gerald Schroeder.

marina

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 6:41 pm

amother wrote:

The link I posted directly answers this question

The link that you posted suggests that there's no proof of yetzias mitzrayim because the Egyptians "never" recorded their defeats.

But I don't know that this very general statement is true... Here's a list of the many wars fought during the several hundred years before and after Yetzias Mitzrayim- some they won, some they lost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....Egypt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....t_war

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:00 pm

As to yetzias mitzrayim, we have a mesorah, passed from generation to generation.

Has anyone offered a substantiated alternate theory as to where or when else this mesorah could have originated?

amother

Taupe

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:02 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I sense fear. Almost panic? What are you afraid of?

amother

Lawngreen

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:04 pm

Look up the work of Wendyl (Vendyl?) Jones. He was a christian who became a Bnei Noach, and a Biblical Archaelogist, a modern day Indiana Jones or sorts (some say Indiana Jones was based on him, but I have no idea).

(On a side note, emunah is belief, not proof, and you husband may never find definitive proof, but that doesn't mean he can't believe.)

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:14 pm

marina wrote:

First of all, you are correct. You "don't know" whether it's true or not. And in fact, you did not post any primary sources from contemporaneous time periods describing Egyptian defeats, just some Wikipedia articles on the history of Egypt.

All that aside, your post is transparently off-topic. OP was asking for help and resources in resolving her dh's issues, and yet you persist in debating the topic.

marina

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:19 pm

amother wrote:

1. I am challenging that assertion because we obviously do know about other defeats that happened in Egypt.

2. It's okay to be off topic sometimes. Even transparently, lol.

3. If you don't like to be off topic, move on and don't continue the off topic discussion.

4. I feel like if I posted something off topic that you agreed with, you'd overlook my lack of relevance. Just a vibe I'm picking up LOL

marina

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:22 pm

And if people are going to post "proofs" or explanations, they should be prepared to have those challenged. Other than that, this poster is 100% correct and her post should end all discussion.

amother wrote:

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:22 pm

marina wrote:

Not the poster you were responding to. Personally I think it's an interesting conversation to have. But OP specifically asked for help re her dh's emunha.

Maybe to continue the debate would be better for a spin off.

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:25 pm

marina wrote:

OOC: is it consistent with site rules to debate the veracity of the Torah?

Optimystic

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:43 pm

amother wrote:

OOC: is it consistent with site rules to debate the veracity of the Torah?

I don't think this is a debate over veracity of Torah. It is a debate over whether worldly proof/evidence is relevant.

(1) No, it is not relevant or is interesting but not necessary. = Okay
(2) Yes, it is relevant and proves the veracity of Torah. = Okay
(3) Yes, and it disproves Torah. = absurd/contrary to Torah and Not Okay

I don't think anyone here is actually claiming 3, just 1 or 2.

marina

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:49 pm

amother wrote:

OOC: is it consistent with site rules to debate the veracity of the Torah?

I'm debating the veracity of the idea that Egyptians never recorded their defeats, not the veracity of Torah.

Mommyg8

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:59 pm

amother wrote:

I sense fear. Almost panic? What are you afraid of?

WOW. Just WOW. You sense fear? Almost panic? What am I afraid of? Are you kidding? Seriously?????!!!!

That was the most snarky comment I have EVER read on imamother! You managed to read my emotions through a five line post on imamother? Are you clairvoyant? Do you do psychotherapy by phone as well? Or is it just as amother that you can do your best psychotherapy (because you can't be called out?)

Just for the information of any other reader - I, like many other imamothers, am in the middle of balancing work, minding small children (and big children) and cleaning for pesach. SOME of us are being home this pesach and are actually having guests!!!! So I didn't have time to post a longer response.

Honestly, you don't own me, not at all!!!!

amother

Rose

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 7:59 pm

marina wrote:

I'm debating the veracity of the idea that Egyptians never recorded their defeats, not the veracity of Torah.

So you read the OP, who wanted support in helping her upset, struggling dh after he read archeology-based bible criticism online. You took one line that you felt you could debate about from the helpful link I posted for OP. (Did you even read the rest of the article?) And you then made a very wide-ranging, as-yet unproven assertion to that one line that, even if you were to somehow prove, in no way disproves the main point. Simply to quibble.

Am I getting it right?

Mommyg8

Sun, Mar 11 2018, 8:09 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with Rose. Historical articles can be notoriously biased in favor of the "theory of the month" and many have an agenda. In any case, wikipedia is definitely not a valid source, so this is not acceptable. I don't have time to read this right now, but I do know that there is much archeological evidence for a lot of other things. We will continue this debate (maybe) after pesach.

In the meantime, may I suggest that this topic no longer be debated on imamother. Very few of us have the time, or even the credentials, to sift through archeological evidence at this point in time, so perhaps move this argument to a different site as this is a frum site, and those of us here believe in Toras Moshe mi'sinai, or at least we should. Thank you.