Your thoughts on this article?

das

Tue, Mar 20 2018, 9:32 pm

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewis.....-girl

excerpt:
One evening, as we were all hanging out in the living room together, the topic of relations education came up. I presented the case that by not talking to children about potential hazards with alcohol, drugs, and relations, parents put kids at risk.

“You learned about relations at a very early age,” my father said.

My response: “Learning about how babies are made is not the same as learning about the hazards associated with relations. Namely, youth pregnancy, infections, and disease.”

“If you keep the Torah’s mitzvos like we taught you, you’ll be protected,” my mother said with pain in her eyes and intonation.

Why would she think her frum parents should teach her about youth pregnancy and STDs?

If she wants them not to impose their values on her, why is she imposing her values on them?

Thoughts?

Maya

Tue, Mar 20 2018, 10:19 pm

I didn't read the article, just going by the excerpt.

She's not imposing values. She's simply asking her parents to protect her - as is their responsibility- by educating her on matters of health and safety.
Even if you knew your child was doing things you disapproved of, you'd still want her to be safe and healthy. You'd be expected to care shoot that. Or at least I hope so.

The parent-to-child role is not the same as the child to parent. You can't compare the responsibilities.

amother

Purple

Tue, Mar 20 2018, 10:35 pm

I think that these days it's imperative to bring up these topics with children. My children are 10 and 6, and I discuss the dangers of drugs and alcohol with them. I also discuss internet safety with them. It's not a sit down serious discussion I just find ways to bring it into the conversation. For example when it comes up in the news or when they ask me about people being drunk on Purim. S-x, pregnancy and STD's will definitely be a harder conversation but it's so important. You never really know what your teenager is up to. I have friends who were raised in the most chassidish, frum homes and the things that they admit that they did when they were in high school.... and these days it's so much easier.

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 6:33 am

What our parents did to us in terms of education is one thing. What we need to do is something totally different.
Our parents did what they new is best and it was meant for that generation, and lots of them didn't know what's going on in their children's lives. Unfortunately, that caused lots of perpetrators to find ways to our children. One example of a value taught was not to talk nivel peh, and parents were very strict about it. So what was an abused child to do?
Today we know more. Although nivel peh is still a strong value, we know to teach children that for parents they can say whatever they want, only it must be with respect. So if a child ch"v goes through anything, they have an open door to a parent to talk to about their situation.
Of course, like with all generalizations, there are exceptions to this to.
About imposing values -that's called chinuch and is mandatory when children grow up. As soon as they are adult/married/etc, imposing values must stop altogether.

tzemerupishtim

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 7:13 am

imasoftov wrote:

Raising children to be unable to protect themselves, what a fine value!

They probably did raise her to be healthy and care about her safety but being that she is doing something that in general frum girls do not do and should not do it is wrong of her to expect them to educate her in that manner. If she is adult enough to have relations then she is adult enough to make an appointment with the doctor to find out on her own. She knows she is doing wrong by even touching the boy.

imasinger

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 7:42 am

I read the article. I don't know this author, but a careful read makes me take her attitude with a chunk of salt.

As a general statement, I am not sure it's called "date rape" when she was lying in bed with a man who has done "everything but" with her eager encouragement, they had been touching each other intimately for a while, and he says, "come on, pleease, you'll like it, you'll see," and she feebly agrees, then later regrets it.

About education -- given her parents' rigid approach to Shabbos and halacha, why would she expect them to be capable of presenting the education she wanted in any appropriate fashion? They don't exactly sound like sensitive, nuanced people.

If they had told her about STD's and date rape, as a teen, she probably would have dismissed it as more hype on a par with the other things she resented about her parents.

I think this has far more to do with her parents' rigid thinking -- and her own -- than anything specifically wrong with the frum world.

amother

Orange

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 8:40 am

I grew up frum but not so sheltered. I was educated about zex- as in pregnancy and STD- in middle school, so I knew all about that. I was raped when I was 15 because what I didn't know about was consent. We kissed and touched a bit. He wanted to do more, I didn't. I repeatedly told him I didn't. He held me down and did it anyway. I didn't kick and scream, he was a lot bigger than me and there didn't seem to be a point. I just did the old "lay back and think of England" till he was done. I didn't tell anyone. I thought because I had been willing until "second base" that my no to going further didn't count. It took me a few years and speaking to a Haredi Rav shortly before my wedding to understand that what happened was rape and that no means no, saying yes to A does not automatically mean yes to B. The issue was not about knowing what zex was, the issue was understanding boundaries and consent. Even the secular world has trouble with these concepts, I wouldn't blame the frum world.

I'm quite a bit frummer than how I grew up. I do think it's important to discuss zex at a young age and to do so from a religious perspective (because the Torah does have plenty to say on the subject and I want my kids to know how the Torah views things). But you have to start with consent from a young age. Not just about not allowing anyone to touch your privates. But about any kind of touch. I teach my toddlers, if the baby is crying when you hug and kiss him, that means he does not want to be hugged and kissed right now. Yes, hugs and kisses are nice, BUT ONLY WHEN THE OTHER PERSON WANTS IT. Tickling- only if the other person wants, and even if they initially agree, they can ask to stop at any time and YOU MUST STOP. It's very important to discuss consent and boundaries, that's the kind of education that protects kids.

crust

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 9:15 am

amother wrote:

I agree with every word in this post. I couldn't have said it better.

leah233

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 9:48 am

Maya wrote:

They did teach her how to protect herself from the situation she got herself into. She ignored what they told her and has no right blaming them.

How many gun control activists teach their children how to use guns safely?

amother

Orange

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 9:52 am

Just to add to my story, we need to be really careful about blaming the victim here. And yes, she is a victim, even if he didn't technically commit a crime because she grudgingly allowed it. I also felt pressured to do some of the things that I consented to. So ok, I can own up and say I did those things willingly and should have said no if I really didn't want to (though given that I clearly said no to zex and he did it anyway, presumably that wouldn't have helped). But he is still morally culpable for his pressuring and manipulative behavior.

How many times do we see threads on here about relatives or friends making requests that are completely out of line and exerting pressure? And we all tell the op, that's not ok, they are out of line to even ask! Even those advising the op to stand up for herself and say NO and draw a hard boundary usually give ideas about how to do so, because it's understood that it's easier said than done. So why is it so hard to understand that this applies to zexual situations too? Sure, one should stick up for oneself. Can you see how that might not be so simple? And even if she ultimately begrudgingly gives in, that doesn't make his behavior less wrong. It's not ok to pressure someone to do something they clearly don't want to do (zexual or not) and if they do give in, that doesn't mean it was really consensual. No, it's not criminal, but it's unacceptable behavior and people who engage in it should be treated as toxic.

leah233

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 10:12 am

amother wrote:

He certainly is wrong for his pressuring and manipulative behavior but that doesn't exonerate her.

He didn't pressure her out of the blue. She knowingly and willingly got herself involved in a situation where it was highly likely that she would face that pressure.

amother

Orange

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 10:20 am

leah233 wrote:

Yes, she bears some culpability. And I don't think this has anything to do with religion as this situation is so so common in the secular world. But my point stands that it is crucial to educate our children about consent and boundaries so that they do not end up on either end of this scenario. And unfortunately it can happen to frum people too. It can happen to engaged couples who get a little lax in halacha (and if a chossen pressures his kallah, would she even realize that's a red flag and should possibly rethink the engagement?) It can even happen in a marriage. Let's not fool ourselves that it doesn't happen to people who do everything right.

Jeanette

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 10:21 am

This girl was experimenting at a very young age and I find it hard to believe that the signs were not evident. A sensitive parent would have picked it up and addressed it early on.

S_x education is very much a matter of chanoch l'naar Al pi Darko. Address each child on their level and give them just enough information that they need at that stage while leaving the door open for further questions.

The overall message I'd want to communicate to my children is that no matter what you did, it's okay to tell me and I will try to help and keep you safe. They should not be afraid to come and tell me if they got themselves into trouble. We see from this article how that fear got her into bigger and bigger trouble. Hashem is compassionate and gives us opportunities to do teshuva. Why are some posters here being more harsh and judgmental than G-d Himself?

SixOfWands

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 10:33 am

amother wrote:

If she said no, she was raped, and she does not bear any responsibility for it. Men are not animals. They can stop. They are obligated to stop if the woman says no. No matter what else she may have agreed to. Indeed, even if she agreed to z3x before.

Its victim blaming, pure and simple. And its not done in any other situation.

But I do agree on the need to educate our children. Because no matter how sheltered you think they are, they can make mistakes. And I'd like them to be able to do tshuva for mistakes and move on, not be left pregnant, or with a rape conviction.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 10:45 am

I have a 5 yr old and 3 yr old. I can not count on one hand how many times a day I have to tell them “ you are not allowed to touch anyone without permission, and no one is allowed to touch you without permission. I am hoping they’ll stop fighting physically, bt also I am hoping that they’ll internalize the concept that they have autonomy and their bodies are private property.

About sx ed - I think it’s unnecessary for frum teens. If one has a child who they suspect is fooling around, a parent needs to sit down and explain all the risks and factors. But I don’t think that across the board education is necessary.
For example, we don’t teach children in NY tornado safety. In the Midwest, we do. Because it’s relevant there.
Also, I think yes super important to teach our children confidence and to speak up. When someone asks them a question, encourage them to answer even if they’re shy, etc. I wonder about these women who say “they didn’t feel like they should say no, even though they didn’t want”. I would be yelling no, loud and clear. (Not specifically rape- anything I’m uncomfortable with ) I think that’s because of my upbringing.

leah233

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 10:52 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I don't think the bolded is correct. People say "you/they asked for it" in situations where the victim had a lot less of a knowing and willing involvement than she did.

As a high school teacher once put it to us (on an unrelated topic)say someone goes to (well known bad neighborhood) and starts screaming racial slurs. It is true that such behavior is no justification for beating someone up or worse but that doesn't take away from the fact the person who did it is no innocent victim .

amother

Gray

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 11:07 am

leah233 wrote:

Disorderly conduct is a Violation under the New York Penal code (and that is what your 'someone' would be guilty of he walks into a town and starts screaming racial slurs).

not comparable to a woman on (or not on) a date.

crust

Wed, Mar 21 2018, 11:09 am

amother wrote:

You are basically saying that all of us as parents, regardless of our religion, are obligated to teach our children how to protect themselves, what abuse is, and how not to give into pressure even when the guy is, or pretends to be, your closest person on earth. That is true.

I just want to point out that in general, if a teen decides not to obey you, then unfortunately all education flies out the window. The teen does not differentiate between halacha, safety and/or practical advice that they learned from you.

If they decide to rebel, they usually rebel all the way.

I am not judjing or going into specific details of a situation here like yea of course s/he went and did xyz because s/he was so controlled by her parents...

I am just saying that unfortunately, even with the best education from the most normal parents, a teen is a teen and our best and most loving education is often pale according to the colors of the challenges they are presented with.

Everything they heard from a parent can crumble when challenged by a so called close freind that is offering a drug or in the heat of the moment when s/he is trying to show how cool s/he is.
They don't stop to think that that is the defining moment that will throw them into the deep end.