How do we tell the kids that dh is not shomer mitzvot?

amother

Natural

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 2:58 am

I posted this in the otd husband forum but I would like to hear some more perspectives and opinions which you can have even if you aren't dealing with this particular hardship.

Dh has stopped being shomer mitzvot almost two years ago. He changed the way he dresses and doesn't go to shul but other than that he is still keeping up apearences for the kids and the comunity and we are determined to make it work.

He asked me what I think about telling the kids whats going on with him.

I have five kids ages 11,9,7.5,5.5 and 1 (obviously we'll tell the twelve month old first Wink

)
I can't really imagine sitting them down and going "You know how Aba remindded you to Daven this morning? Well he doesn't daven. Ever. And you know what else? He also eats none kosher and uses his phone on shabbos. What do you guys think about that?"

Sorry, I don't know where that came from I'm not usually so snarky...

Seriously though I know in theory that putting things out in the open is the healthy way to go, (I think it is anyway, I don't really know anything...)
In practice it absalutly terrifys me.
What would we tell them? What would they think? Not to mention that telling them makes everything more real and permamnent somehow...

And such a big part of me is still hoping he will just go back to being his old frum self and we won't have to tell anyone...

amother

Natural

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:48 am

Mamushka wrote:

Do your kids know he doesn't go to Shul and Shabbes? Do they ask why? Does your DH feel he is living a lie?

The kids know he doesn't go to shul on shabbos.
It was a very very gradual process. At first he would mostly go and only miss once in a while and he would tell the kids he isn't feeling well. Then he didn't go more than he did go then he only went if one of the kids asked him to go, then he tried to convince them to stay home when they asked to go and eventually they stopped asking to go and he stopped going.

Now they're pretty much used to it and they don't ask anything.

I don't know if dh feels he's living a lie. I guess so?

amother

Natural

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:54 am

abound wrote:

Ask someone who knows more than us.....
I like FF suggestion, but more than that I think your DH needs to stop reminding them to Daven, they will be more turned off from Yiddishkeit if they find their father pestered them but does not believe it.

I wouldn't make a decision based only on anything you guys say but I think hearing people's thoughts and opinions would help me think about it from different angles. I don't have anyone irl to talk about this with.

And he doesn't pester them. Don't you remind your kids to daven or bench sometimes?
I know I do and why shouldn't he? He's still their father.

Mamushka

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:58 am

If he is not going to Shul on Shabbes and they see that he doesn't daven at home, I guess your kids are used to what they see and don't think there is something odd going on.
Are you going to Shul?
The way I approach the topic of being religious or not, is that I tell my kids, some people are religious some aren't. We respect everyone as a person, no matter what. Rules in the house have to be kept by everyone.
Philosophical discussions about why we are religious or not, will come. Be honest and don't go too deep into things. Keep it age appropriate.
Good Luck!

rowo

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 4:05 am

I don't think there's a need to make a formal announcement to them.
As they grow older and more aware they will probably realise on there own.
You can make sure you have an open relationship with them so that they feel comfortable to discuss and ask questions. But kids are really perceptive and notice everything. The older one prob knows more than you realise already.

sirel

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 4:37 am

amother wrote:

And he doesn't pester them. Don't you remind your kids to daven or bench sometimes?
I know I do and why shouldn't he? He's still their father.

I would absolutely not remind my children to daven or bentch if I didn't think that there is an obligation to daven and bentch.

What is dh's reason for reminding them? does he think they are obligated and he isn't?

Sorry, that is so off.

vicki

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 6:09 am

sirel wrote:

I don't find it off, I find it touching.
It probably isn't so black and white that he DOESN'T think he has to. He also knows the community he lives in and knows the obligation he has to help his kids succeed within their community.

I also think his reminding them won't last long.

imasinger

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 6:26 am

Putting things out in the open is not always the healthiest way to go. Especially where one's children are concerned. I think most experts would say that sharing any sensitive family secrets depends on the child's age and stage, as well as the likelihood that they will find out from someone else other than a parent.

Therefore, I think the sarcasm in the response you posted came from a reasonable question.

"DH, what exactly do you want to say to them, and why?"

It isn't reasonable to expect them to offer emotional support to him; they're all still young, and will be confused.

It isn't fair to offer them the alternative of being OTD themselves, if that's not on the table (and his telling them does offer a tacit permission to be like him).

Is your oldest a boy, or a girl? Is there some point soon where he might be expected to learn with a son, possibly for Bar Mitzvah, where this will all come out?

If this far he has kept up appearances for the community, is he pushing for that to change? Because telling a young child pretty much guarantees that sooner or later, the news won't stay hidden. And that may impact where the kids go to school, who will play with them, etc, depending on how flexible people are where you live.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be discussing all of this together with a qualified (and non frum) couples therapist.

sirel

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 6:57 am

vicki wrote:

It's like rule number one in parenting- don't tell your children to do something you don't or won't do. Be a role model.

How hypocritical is it for a father to tell his children to be shomer mitzvos when he isn't?
That will completely turn them off.

Better he shouldn't say anything.

amother

Olive

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 7:39 am

I really think that we should not be focusing on whether DH should remind them to daven.
Thats not what OP asked.
Woman! This is not a time to judge. Be helpful!
OP- regarding your question, (I am far from a professional) but I think that as long as your not helping your husband live a lie, and your not lying to your kids. I dont see a need to sit down an tell your kids everything.
They will figure it out on their own slowly at their own time.
You can always show love and respect for your DH, but DO NOT try to cover up what hes doing.
If your kids ask why DH does/doesn’t do something, you can say “tatty does his thing and we do ours” (and maybe even expound a little more to the older kids)
Its a very complicated situation obviously and I wish you the best of luck.
Get some direction from a good therapist and rav.

thunderstorm

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 7:55 am

OP, I don't have advice , but can tell you my own experience.
My father went OTD when I was 11. In those days it was not common and very embarrassing to us. It started with his mode of dress. I remember the day he came home without peyos and he said he had gone to a new barber who just chopped them off. I totally believed that story at that time. It took me a few years to realize that he had requested the barber to do it.
Nobody ever made an official announcement to tell us what our father was or wasn't doing. It came from self understanding as we got older. I think being naive and not realizing immediately helped in a way. He conducted Shabbos and Yom Tov well when we went to him. (My parents divorced ). We went to shul with him, we had Shabbos seudos and Yom Tov seudos with zemiros and guests. But for example Shabbos he'd carry his keys in his pocket when there wasn't an eiruv , or turned his light on in his room when he was looking for something. He was careful that his kitchen always remained kosher even though he ate out at non kosher restaurants etc.
When I was an older teen , closer to adulthood , around age 17 I realized that he really wasn't frum all along and just put up a front for us. Nobody had to tell us. I personally think it as better for me that way. He never tried to make us do anything he wouldn't do, that would've been a big turn off.

amother

Green

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 8:01 am

It is COMPLETELY legitimate to want and encourage your kids to do better than you are doing, as long as it is done in a loving way.

I think you need to ask your dh how HE feels. Then I would tell him that you have such mixed feelings that you aren't sure, and you would like to discuss it with a Rav and/or therapist. What does he think about that? If he will go to a therapist, great. If he doesn't want to ask a Rav, tell him that you understand, but you are going to call a Rav for yourself.

Alternatively, do what I do on almost everything that I don't know how to handle with my otd dh: call a Rav now and don't mention it unless/untill it seems pertinent to the conversation. It works great for me, as my dh doesn't hold with calling Rav's, and I need to for my own sanity. Then discuss it with dh and suggest a therapist, and discuss the Rav only if he will be open.

Personally, I don't see the point of announcing to the kids that Tati is otd. If they start to ask questions, it's time for family counseling, imo. I once spoke with our Rabbi about my concerns for the future, and he said that it didn't have to be a big hypocritical problem if the father encourages his children to be observant, but also explains to his children that even though Tati can't do this thing, he wants that his children should not make the same mistakes he did, and should be Torah observant. A good Rav/therapist will be able to talk your dh through this.

As you say, your dh will b'e"H come back to observance. Believe it.

Hashem should grant you peace❤️

amother

Natural

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 8:12 am

thunderstorm wrote:

Thanks! This is really good insight.
Do you feel you can talk to your parents about this? How about other things?

I keep comparing things to my own childhood. My father was an alchoholic and we never ever talked about it at home at all and it has kind of closed off the lines if comunication about everything else as well. Till this day talking to my parents about anything at all unpleasant is just not an option to me. I don't want that to happen to our kids and the fact that they don't ask anything even though things have obviously changed with dh makes me worried.

amother

Natural

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 8:15 am

amother wrote:

Thank you and Amen!

thunderstorm

Tue, Mar 27 2018, 8:49 am

amother wrote:

We have had discussions . I think I have a problem discussing things with my parents because I don't have a great relationship with them. If I felt my father was very loving to me all along I would've felt comfortable talking about my pain. But my father was really not a very loving and doting father and I think my issues lie there as opposed to his not being frum. He does talk about life when he was frum and I think he misses a lot of it. He has said more than once that if he was able to he would start all over. I'm not sure what he means by that. He definitely expresses that he has a lot of a nachos from us and our children for being frum and that he compares our kids to non religious ones all the time and he feels there is definitely something special in a frum child. He has also expressed that he feels bad for messing up our lives and causing us so much pain, because of his own issues. So yes , we talk. But we didn't talk about it when we were younger.