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How do we tell the kids that dh is not shomer mitzvot?
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 8:55 am
You've got some good advice here. I am amazed at how calm you are despite the situation.
I think the way your question is phrased shows very much about your good middos and courage.

I only want to wish you that Hashem give you the strength and knowledge to pull through this.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:14 am
Ideally, brothers and bils of yours who are happy and frum should be prominent role models for your kids and more actively involved than usual.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:23 am
I wouldn't have a sit-down discussion about this.
He will feel better about himself that he's "out in the open" and not needing to pretend, but I would think it would be too traumatic for the kids.
When the situation demands an explanation, don't lie. Especially as the kids get older, be honest with them and preferably on a one-on-one basis, not all the kids together.


As I see it, an official announcement can bring more pain and confusion (why didn't you tell us till now? are you getting divorced? so we don't have to be religious anymore?) Rather wait for an opportunity to present itself where the explanation (that dh is no longer frum) will provide clarity.


Last edited by pause on Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:30 am
Thunderstorm I have to say you should probably write a book.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:33 am
crust wrote:
Thunderstorm I have to say you should probably write a book.

It would be a counter-response to Shulem Deen's book, presenting The Other Side.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:52 am
pause wrote:
It would be a counter-response to Shulem Deen's book, presenting The Other Side.


How would it be a counter response? It doesn’t sound like all her experiences were so rosy in the community.
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Kiwi13




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 9:59 am
Like others have said, how and what you tell depends on the kids’ ages and ability to understand and what they need to know that will benefit them (the children). If there are other factors involved (emotional/mental health struggles, religious questioning, etc.) that might come up too. Whether it’s likely to be a short term thing or a long term thing also might influence the conversation, as will your hopes for your kids’ future practices. I deeply believe that both parents must be respected and you have to find ways to present the information that won’t damage their father’s image in their minds. It’s a delicate balance with young black-and-white thinking children, but it’s very important and actually can teach them a lot of positive things about acceptance and understanding of others. Invite them to ask their questions and answer what they ask, and like others mentioned, don't volunteer any additional information unless it will benefit them.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 10:01 am
amother wrote:
How would it be a counter response? It doesn’t sound like all her experiences were so rosy in the community.


I didn't read anything about her community.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 10:02 am
amother wrote:
How would it be a counter response? It doesn’t sound like all her experiences were so rosy in the community.

Shulem Deen left. She can present what it's like to be the daughter of such a father.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 10:11 am
pause wrote:
Shulem Deen left. She can present what it's like to be the daughter of such a father.


Yes!

While otoh no one should be forced to live a lie, those who commit to a frum lifestyle and raise frum children with frum values, and then go otd, knowingly are leaving children who are permanently wounded victims on the battlefield, filled with shame, ostracism and pain.
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 11:49 am
amother wrote:
How would it be a counter response? It doesn’t sound like all her experiences were so rosy in the community.

Actually growing up our family was very well loved and taken care of by the community. I am living proof that tzedaka and chesed pays off. I could write a book on all the goodness that was done for me growing up. It's only after I hit adulthood and people don't even know about my family since I live in a different city , is when I started not feeling accepted amongst our fellow frum Jews. My mother AND father were showered with the warmest love and care By the neighbors and community members.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 12:45 pm
Mevater wrote:
Yes!

While otoh no one should be forced to live a lie, those who commit to a frum lifestyle and raise frum children with frum values, and then go otd, knowingly are leaving children who are permanently wounded victims on the battlefield, filled with shame, ostracism and pain.


And whose fault is that????
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 1:41 pm
Mevater wrote:
Yes!

While otoh no one should be forced to live a lie, those who commit to a frum lifestyle and raise frum children with frum values, and then go otd, knowingly are leaving children who are permanently wounded victims on the battlefield, filled with shame, ostracism and pain.


Melodramatic much? "Wounded victims on the battlefield"? What "battlefield"? Mom and dad seem to be getting along pretty well. "Shame, ostracism and pain"? Well, maybe if people in the community treat the kids of someone who is OTD like a leper. But why would they do that?

Lying to kids is never a good idea. Its likely to cause more harm than good. Be simple and straightforward. Not all Jews practice in the same way. Some eat rice on Pesach, some don't. And some don't follow even rules like kashrut. You're probably noticed that Dad's not doing a lot of things any more -- he's not learning, or going to shul. He may even be doing some things that I think, and that you're learning, are wrong. That's a decision that he's allwoed to make as an adult. But, together, we've both decided that its right to follow the rules in the house, and for you to be raised shomer mitzvot.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 1:57 pm
Mevater wrote:
Yes!

While otoh no one should be forced to live a lie, those who commit to a frum lifestyle and raise frum children with frum values, and then go otd, knowingly are leaving children who are permanently wounded victims on the battlefield, filled with shame, ostracism and pain.


He kept everything for his kids. He wore the whole levush after they divorced so the kids would be more comfortable when visiting. There was zero reason to distance him from his kids but his ex and their community did that anyway.

He was a victim of parental alienation and you are blaming the victim here.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 2:12 pm
amother wrote:

What would we tell them? What would they think? Not to mention that telling them makes everything more real and permamnent somehow...

And such a big part of me is still hoping he will just go back to being his old frum self and we won't have to tell anyone...

I wouldn't say unless they ask. I see no purpose in telling them. What's a child to do with this information?
When they're older, if they ask you'll answer.
I just don't see any benefit in telling children at this point. Esp that he's keeping up appearances.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:25 pm
[quote="amother"]I posted this in the otd husband forum but I would like to hear some more perspectives and opinions which you can have even if you aren't dealing with this particular hardship.

Dh has stopped being shomer mitzvot almost two years ago. He changed the way he dresses and doesn't go to shul but other than that he is still keeping up apearences for the kids and the comunity and we are determined to make it work.////////

If he’s dressing differently and doesn’t go to Shul, you can be sure your kids already picked up on the fact that he’s not frum any more. How does he have the ability to not see the hypocrisy in telling them to daven when he doesn’t? Putting up a front is worse than dealing with things honestly. Teaching the kids that it’s ok to pretend to keep mitzvos in front of people while violating them privately is a TERRIBLE lesson in parenting...it teaches them to lie, to be phony, and much worse about frum Keith being disposable. I hope you and he are in marriage counseling to deal with this!
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:27 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Treat it the same way you would zexual education. Don't tell them anything unless they ask first! Even then, only tell them as much as you think they should know, tiny bits at a time.

I can't imagine any good coming out of telling them before they start to figure it out on their own.


With all due respect that’s HORRIBLE advice! Kids are more perceptive than we realize and I’m sure they’ve picked up on some of it already! Keeping it from them teaches them that their parents can’t be trusted and are dishonest!!
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:31 pm
[quote="amother"]I posted this in the otd husband forum but I would like to hear some more perspectives and opinions which you can have even if you aren't dealing with this particular hardship.

Dh has stopped being shomer mitzvot almost two years ago. He changed the way he dresses and doesn't go to shul but other than that he is still keeping up apearences for the kids and the comunity and we are determined to make it work.) quote

I can’t help wondering why you’re continuing to have children with him even after he stopped being frum. The whole situation is very unhealthy and unfortunately doesn’t bode well for the marriage. Hoping he’ll change back isn’t realistic or productive. You have to decide if this is a good role model for your kids who may end up emulating his behavior Chas v’sholom and going otd as well. Is he in therapy? He sure does not it. This doesn’t happen in a vacuum, obviously he’s unhappy, going through a crisis or something else emotional...
I wish you hatzlacha
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:34 pm
amother wrote:
I wouldn't make a decision based only on anything you guys say but I think hearing people's thoughts and opinions would help me think about it from different angles. I don't have anyone irl to talk about this with.

And he doesn't pester them. Don't you remind your kids to daven or bench sometimes?
I know I do and why shouldn't he? He's still their father.


“Why shouldn’t he?” Because HE DOESN’T and he’s being a complete hypocrite! How does he justify thinking it’s necessary for his kids to daven, but not for him to do so???? How do YOU rationalize it? It sounds like you should somehow think it’s ok for him to not practice what he preaches to his kids!
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Tue, Mar 27 2018, 3:36 pm
rowo wrote:
I don't think there's a need to make a formal announcement to them.
As they grow older and more aware they will probably realise on there own.
You can make sure you have an open relationship with them so that they feel comfortable to discuss and ask questions. But kids are really perceptive and notice everything. The older one prob knows more than you realise already.


Not telling them honestly, and allowing them to grow up thinking it’s ok that their father picks and chooses whether to be frum or not, will naturally teach them that they have the same choice, and can decide as well not to be frum G’f. I’m sure that’s not what OP wants! Therefore she must be honest with them and explain to them that she does NOT agree with her husband”s decision and that it’s NOT the right thing to do.
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