Xsual abuse of girls/children

thunderstorm

Tue, Apr 24 2018, 10:30 pm

amother wrote:

Aaaaaand, this thread right here, folks, is exactly why these things are massively underreported. You want to know why police were not immediately called the second it happened? Just read most of the responses here!

Again, not one person on this thread accused this girl of making up a story.
There are just some missing parts of the story that make it hard to understand, how something of this magnitude has not been reported to the police. That this story has been shared by a medical professional without reporting it to authorities is also astonishing.
And please don't blame under reporting because of responses like these. The questions are coming BECAUSE it is underreported!!

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Apr 24 2018, 10:58 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

It's fair to say, hmmm, third hand anonymous information that's scant on the details- I'll have to reserve judgment. I can't really think anything without more details. It's telling that the first thing people do is try to poke holes in the story and start getting into how often people make it up.

And yes, these kind of questions are absolutely to blame for underreporting. Telling people they should report right away if something happens is not going to get more people to report. There's a reason these things don't get reported. The minute someone says something, everyone is poking holes in the story from "she didn't say anything soon enough" to "she didn't cry enough". Would you say anything if you knew that was the response you'd get? It's easier to say nothing and try to move on. You know what will get more people to report? Respecting them when they report. That doesn't mean taking everything at face value; of course things need to be investigated from all angles to get the full picture. But do it without treating the alleged victim like a suspect.

Tue, Apr 24 2018, 11:42 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

When a victim, or survivor, finally decides to talk about this hushed topic, they instinctively tend to use the least amount of words, thus the missing pieces. Missing pieces happen ALL the time. They don't come to you with the most confidence describing in full details what, when, where and how things happened. They also feel a huge amount of guilt, whether guilty or not, which makes some stories feel distorted from the truth. Therefore, a huge amount of compassion is necessary in order to get to the bottom of this. Please nobody feel offended. This was just mho and explanation. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

Miri7

Tue, Apr 24 2018, 11:55 pm

amother wrote:

I recently heard from a reliable non-Jewish colleague who works at the local health centre that a chareidi teenage girl had come in. She confided in her that several adult men in this (my) community have been raping her since childhood. She is refusing to name them or go to the police. She just wanted a health check to make sure she hasn't caught anything from them.
Now she could always be lying but why would she?
This means there are likely many child abusers currently at large where I live.
I am not sure what to make of this but am very scared. This is a small community and there is a general feeling of trust and that children are safe.
Has anyone dealt with this issue? What would you do?
I feel like I want to tell people but I also don't want to give away too many details to protect the girl.

I would urge your colleague to make a report to the authorities. Depending on where you live, she may be required by law to do so.

The girl has alleged that serious crimes have occurred. That should be followed up on.

I cringe when the immediate reaction is “she’s lying!” That is classic slut-shaming. She may be lying, she may be mentally ill and imagining the whole thing - but she may be telling the truth!!! Do not assume the victim is lying. Investigate. Hopefully the truth will out. And honestly, it would be way better if she was lying - it is appalling that this would happen to any child.

But it’s our job as adults to investigate and take such claims seriously.

byisrael

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 2:35 am

I am a victim of csa. I get why people are getting worked up, I'm passionate about this topic too - but KEEP IT CIVIL. Gosh Rolling Eyes

....

Lets break down the story

- Non jewish Medical proffesional is told that several men have been r - ping a child and the victim refuses to disclose names community (which is typical) op is anxious because this is her community.
Do we have any evidance that the Non jewish, non community member is willing to risk her proffesional license and not report? Is that probable?

- Victim will not give names or go to police

Op is anxious and doesn't know what to do or how to do it without hurting victim.

- Simba mentioned a situation where someone said they where raped so that DR. (probably frum) would not know she had pre -marital s - x. She gave this example NOT to doubt victim but to calm Op's anxiety in a situation where she has no control.

My friend work with at risk teens in the iriya (jerusalem) there is a real issue that they have to deal with daily, bais yaakov girls in s - x ual relationships will say they where r - ped so that they can get the day after pill / tested for std's. What happens when they say they where hurt and refuse to name a perp they (try to) get them in therapy and in the course of therapy they end admitting the truth. My friend has seen dozens of these situation - its hard to keep a double life.

Is it likely that a group of men are abusing together only 1 victim over years and have not done anything else and have not been caught - possible but not likely.

Is it prossible that SOMEONE is abusing/abused victim and she is afraid or wants to protect them and therefore is describing a highly improbable situation - possible.

Is it possible that SOMEONE is abusing/abused the victim and she therefore repetedly get herself into situations where she is hurt again - possible

Is it possible that victim had s - x with someone consensually and know is freaking out and doesn't want anyone to know - possible.

Is it possible that there was some kind of date r - pe - possible.

WE CAN"T KNOW

What op can do is inform community leaders and ask them to initiate community wide saftey awareness. And watch and educate her own kids. And daven.

There is not much she can do for this girl unfortunatly - because regardless WHAT she needs help.

heidi

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 5:46 am

amother wrote:

Ok, let's make some seder here. First of all, if teenage is even one day over 18, there is no police involvement unless she wants to file a report.
If she is under 18 she should need a parental consent to be examined.
This should definitely be reported to children's services.
Lastly, to all you naysayers: The two cases I specifically worked with in an exclusively charedi community in Israel were both teenage girls being farmed out for zex to their father/stepfather's friends right in the convenience of their own home. The mothers knew but didn't want to ruin their marriage.
Truth is way stranger than fiction.

simba

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 6:08 am

heidi wrote:

Yuck, yikes , ewww..sad.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 6:56 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I was trying to keep away from this thread, but this post ..

So you would believe a girl who says she was raped by MULTIPLE frum men? Where, when, how would such a thing happen? This story does not have the ring of truth, im sorry.

And off the topic, but does anyone who comes up with an accusation automatically saying the truth? What a strange world we live in.

Unfortunatly, this is the detail in the story that has the loudest 'ring of truth' in it. Many s-xual abuse victems are re-victemized over and over again. I know this can be hard to understand, but there is generally a grooming process involved in s-xual abuse (and any abuse) and a lot of shame, embarressment, guilt, and fear involved in the abuse. Children come to believe their abusers view of them- that they are weak, or dumb, or bad- and seek out situations that confirm this view. This results in the victem being 'primed' and an easy target for multiple abusers.

What I find confusing about the story is the fact that the health care worker did not automatically report the abuse. In the states a disclosion of abuse needs to be reported immidiatly, regardless of the wishes of the child. Is there no such thing as mandated reporting in Israel?

Simple1

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 8:22 am

eema of 3 wrote:

There was no violation of HIPAA, unless the colleague gave information about the girl, other than where she is from.

The OP implied that she knows more when she said she is withholding more info so as to protect the girl's privacy.

BTW, if someone IRL complains about abuse we should NOT brush it off. It's different to be wary on an online forum like this, where threads can be started by anybody and reach thousands of people.

leah233

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 12:34 pm

On the one hand if I was a nurse and a teenage girl told me that she had been raped by several men in her community since childhood there is no way I could just ignore it. Even if the girl refuses to talk further there has to be something done in such a situation. It absolutely cannot be left alone like the way it was.

On the other hand say I was on the jury in the trial where the girl agreed to talk . The defendants vehemently deny all accusations. If there is no physical evidence I would vote to acquit them. It's her word against theirs. That isn't guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

crust

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

How old are these men?
How long ago did this happen?
Is she still in contact with them?
Did they threaten to kill or injure harm her in any other way if she spoke up?
How is she emotionally? Has your friend referred her to a psychiatrist?

I'm asking because I think your friend, when telling you such a story, should be able to provide these benign but helpful details.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 2:34 pm

amother wrote:

If these frum men were never secluded with her, they should have nothing to worry about. Why is it always on the girl to be careful where she goes, be careful what she wears, learn jiu-jitsu, etc. etc? Why isn't it on the grown man to avoid situations where he could be vulnerable to accusation?

Ummm, one has nothing to do with the other.

A girl has to be on her toes to protect herself, because there are sickos out there in the world.

A sicko is not trying to avoid situations where he is vulnerable to accusation. That would be a normal man, not the man the girl is on her toes around. They are two different types of people.

amother

Jade

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 10:42 pm

OP here. Just to remind you, I never said my colleague didn't report this: by law she had to. However in this scenario, in that particular clinic, the girl was not obligated to give her real name because they specifically try and encourage people to come in who otherwise wouldn't and anyone can drop in to this free and anonymous clinic (I don't know if she did or not give her name or any name as by law again my colleague was not able to tell me that: it is legally ok to say it was a chareidi girl and raped by men in the community as this doesn't give enough info to identify anyone but obviously you can't give much more away). Also with her refusing to give any details on the abusers it is impossible to say if they were family members or who they were. Presumably her parents will have been notified by social services and/or the police if it was known who they were but who knows if they believed her or wanted to do anything or, if the abusers were family, wanted to cause any stigma by investigating. But certainly social services will be involved in a case like this, I just don't know the outcome of that and my colleague obviously couldn't tell me because of confidentiality.

I understood this girl was around 18, however since the abuse allegedly happened when she was a child it would still be reportable even if she refused to give any more information. But the police might not be able to do much without any information to go on. It still doesn't mean nothing happened to her. I also assume here that there would be other children at risk, for example her siblings, which again would need social services input even if the girl herself wasn't a minor anymore.

My colleague is very trustworthy and works within the community for a while now and was just as shocked as I was to hear this (which is why it came up at all).
I don't think we should first of all jump to conclusions that she has to be lying. These kind of things have happened. I have no evidence that she wasn't lying either and I'm sure THAT too happens but as said before would be very difficult for her to say anything to anyone in the community due to negative reactions, if she was actually telling the truth.

amother

Jade

Sat, Apr 28 2018, 5:55 pm

OP here. I'm still worried about this and was wondering if anyone had advice on what to do. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the story is true. Because as you can see with the details I posted, while it's been reported, there is no knowing if the abusers will ever be caught, what would you do? Should I be warning mums with daughters about this? This is a small community so chances are some of us have kids who interact with those men.