What do you think? noise shabbos backyard neighborhood kids?

amother

Oak

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:57 pm

amother wrote:

Growing up our house was the center of all the action especially on shabbos. We loved it. And so did all our neighbors who were always welcome as were their children. An open house full of love and warmth only helped our whole neighborhood. People still reminisce fondly about it as do we. I assume if someone wanted to nap then they just shut their windows or something. To this day we only hear positives about it. (though I understand some neighborhoods may have different norms.)

Or if someone wanted to nap, they didn't complain they just grinned and dealt. Do you think anyone would complain years later if they didn't speak up then?

There is no doubt that the house that OP described is fun for the children and the moms watching them. It doesn't mean that it was universally appreciated by all.

southernbubby

Thu, May 03 2018, 8:04 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Go to the library? With electronic doors and electric eyes and electronic detectors going in and out? Not to mention the need to be quiet and still. Can you really compare the library to outdoors? Hey, our local library has couches. Maybe you can head there for a nap!

And the need for parents to take kids to the library. (In some places, children under the age of 12 may not enter a library without an adult. Sending your 7 year old there alone is asking for trouble.) But, but, EVERYONE naps. Except the people taking the kids to the library. And the people tasked with looking after children who are too old to nap, but too young to be left alone.

I don't know what "whopping" means, other than "very large." Nor did the OP refer to hollering. She referred to children playing loudly, and to "shouting." which sounds like a normal part of children's play. She also talked about 3 hours, not one, and others have discussed keeping kids quiet until 4 pm. Which is most of the day, particularly for younger children who need to be in by 5 or 5:30.

Nor did OP claim that there was any community norm of quiet until 4 pm on Shabbat. Indeed, the fact that so many folks are out and about with their kids at the neighbor's house leads me to believe that there is no such norm.

And you live on 2 acres -- well over the size of a football field. I highly doubt that OP does if the noise is so intrusive that with closed windows, she cannot rest.

If the kids are really shouting at the top of their lungs for 3 hours, its not unreasonable to ask that they moderate their tones. But its ridiculous to tell kids to sit on their tushes quietly for most of Shabbat, particularly when there are so many alternatives to dampen noise (including, on 2 acres, planting some trees).

The library idea was about kids who have tests on chol ha moed Succos. Some day schools are open on chol ha moed and college students can obviously take themselves to a library on chol ha moed. I realize that colleges gave out coloring and crayons after the election but we still trust kids that age to visit the library.

amother

Oak

Thu, May 03 2018, 8:55 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I live on 2 acres. I don't know if OP lives on the same size lot.

OP never asked the kids to sit on their tushes. She asked of there was some time that the neighbors play equipment was not open to the whole neighborhood.

Even you agree that asking the kids to moderate their tone is not unreasonable.

amother

Oak

Fri, May 04 2018, 7:11 am

amother wrote:

Considering our neighbors all participated and often thanked us profusely and sent gifts bakery goods flowers etc for years I'm pretty sure were all okay with it Wink

(though perhaps some posters are not ok with their situation)

You sound like my kids when they say everyone has a smart phone but them, or everyone is going to California without their parents.

When you start questioning all or everyone, there is not 100% participation. You can't know that everyone was ok with it. You can know that some people were grateful.

I don't complain about noisy screaming children because they don't disturb me. I am not ok with it on behalf of those they do disturb.

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:49 am

southernbubby wrote:

Not the same thing at all unless it is all or nothing. The napping neighbor doesn't have the right to demand that the children never play outside on Shabbos and never invite their friends. She is only asking that they don't include other families every Shabbos or all day every Shabbos.

The person who doesn't want the neighbor's lawn mowed on Sunday mornings has no right to demand that mowing not take place until the afternoon but would be within his rights to ask that it takes place at 8 a.m. rather than 7:30.

Jay walking is against the law in many places and although no one should be careless with human life, most likely someone who hits a jay walker would not be blamed if he was unable to stop unless he was exceeding the speed limit.

Starting at 8 am meant my husband would miss shul. So then he started mowing after shul, which meant by the time he was done and we could leave it was basically 10 am, which meant instead of going on errands and being home for lunch, we would either have to pack lunch or get something out. It also messed with napping schedules.

We did it, but really resented it. My husband eventually switched to mowing Friday afternoon but that made erev shabbos harder because I don't get home until 5 pm on Fridays in the summer.

This year, we have a gardener and my kids are a little older so it's a bit easier.

So is it really fair for him to ask that of us when he is retired and can sleep any time he wants? No.

People have to live their own lives. They can be good neighbors even if they don't acquiesce to every request of their neighbors. My husband did it because he hates confrontation, but it's at the direct expense of our own family.

southernbubby

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:24 am

saw50st8 wrote:

On Sunday mornings many working people like to sleep later than 7:30 and don't like the lawn mowers at that hour and by Sunday afternoon, there may be multiple lawn mowers going so it is hard to sleep then as well. The elderly often have trouble sleeping at night if they sleep during the day so it is not recommended that the elderly nap during the day if they tend to be up all night as a result.

Your husband is right about avoiding confrontation. You have to live next to that person until someone moves. You also may be rewarded in life somewhere along the way, hopefully, by Hashem who never forgets a kindness.

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:11 am

southernbubby wrote:

People with young kids rarely can sleep in. On Sundays, my kids are often up at 5:30 and we keep them inside until 7:30, even though they want to go in. And, even if people want to sleep in, they need to figure out a way to do so without inconveniencing others. This wasn't a simple favor to ask - it literally screwed up our Sunday schedule for years.

Living in a neighborhood and not out on a farm in the middle of nowhere means you have to tolerate legal noises. I really resented being asked that because it really screwed us. Either way we were the bad ones - either we continued to mow at the time that was best for us and we look like mean people or we negatively impact our schedule and often the naps of our young kids. So I have zero patience for people like OP who think they have a right to control neighborhood noise beyond what is illegal on a regular basis. She's saying that her needs trump other people's needs and that isn't right.

amother

Linen

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:16 am

saw50st8 wrote:

She's not saying that her needs trump others. She is asking if accommodations can be made so that hers and her neighbors needs can be met.

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:21 am

amother wrote:

She's not saying that her needs trump others. She is asking if accommodations can be made so that hers and her neighbors needs can be met.

Yes, she can install soundproofing windows and/or sleep in the basement so that she can't hear the noise and the kids can continue playing. This isn't a one time request and will put the neighbors in an awkward position. OP should figure out what SHE can do to minimize the noise in her home and not rely on other people.

amother

Linen

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:32 am

saw50st8 wrote:

That may or may not be an option for her, but regardless, BOTH should try to accommodate one another. She should try to minimize the noise in her home and the neighbor should try to keep the noise level at bay for 1-2 hrs on Shabbos.

(And sometimes no amount of soundproofing, or white noise can suffice to drown the whooping, hollering and shouting from a large group of kids.)

SixOfWands

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:41 am

southernbubby wrote:

You do know that only a handful of campuses gave out coloring books after the election. But I guess that's all you got.

You also do know that someone suggested that the same kids who enjoy playing on a swingset should walk themselves over to the library on Shabbat afternoon, so that adults can nap. If the kids playing next door to the OP are actually twenty-somethings attending college, I guess I'll agree that they should keep it quieter. But it sounds like they're 5 year olds. And I don't think that they should be heading out on their own, crossing streets, and yes, breaking electronic eyes, so that some 40-something can take a nap.

For gosh sakes. Do you always have to be so nasty?

amother

Green

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:43 am

amother wrote:

OP should gently make her neighbor aware of just how loud her Shabbat afternoon gatherings get "you are all having such a wonderful time, the noise travels into our house".

Her neighbor should evaluate what OP is getting at with the comment, and govern herself accordingly. At that point she can determine if she is going to be a super nice neighbor and give OP a bit of sound break - or not. Its on her to decide how to behave. IMHO continuing as she was is the neutral reaction.

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

Soundproofing + earplugs + moving to a room near the front of the house should do it. I can't imagine kids are yelling at levels that exceed 100 dB. Those two items together would definitely silence 100 dB and 100 dB is LOUD. I'm not sure a group of kids can even do that.

Asking for 1-2 hours on shabbos isn't always feasible. What if the neighbors kids are quiet from 12-1 and that's when OP is eating lunch so the noise doesn't bother her?

amother

Linen

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:52 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Oh, we are so going in circles. All that has been suggested is that the two neighbors have a conversation, so they can attempt to work out their personal details and see if there is a way to accommodate both. Nothing more, nothing less.

And a large group of kids can be so noisy, they can be heard from blocks away in a suburban area.

SixOfWands

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:55 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Right. They make soundproof windows. And soundproof window inserts. Or curtains. And white noise machines. And earplugs. And moving to other areas of the house.

I'm older. I don't have little kids. I live in an apartment across from the park (NOISE) and near a pool (SUMMER NOISE). And lately, someone in the building has started playing piano concertos all Saturday afternoon. I never thought I'd be serenaded over Shabbat lunch, but there you go. At least the person plays well. Unlike the guy who used to play bagpipes down the block. That's life. You cannot expect that people will adjust their lives to meet your schedule.

amother

Green

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:56 am

amother wrote:

What has been suggested is that the noisy neighbor should accommodate napping neighbor.

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 10:59 am

amother wrote:

I think the conversation is rude and may back the neighbor into a corner even if she doesn't have to accommodate. It might breed ill will because of it, especially if OP hasn't soundproofed or gotten ear plugs first.

OP's first step should be to figure out how to solve the noise independently and only afterwards if it is still a problem, then think about approaching the neighbor.

amother

Slategray

Fri, May 04 2018, 11:00 am

saw50st8 wrote:

OP here. I never said my needs trumps others. I said that it's very disturbing when many neighborhood kids make a lot of noise shabbos afternoon in my neighbor's yard. If it was just their kids, we would barely hear the noise. If I wanted noise, I would have lived near a park. They don't have to accomodate anyone but if they would consider us and our neighbors and only have their kids for the first few hours and invite everyone else later, that would be considerate of them.