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What do you think? noise shabbos backyard neighborhood kids?
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Many neighborhood kids play in neighbors backyard- swing set shabbos afternoon 3 hours, yelling, very noisy, neighbors cant nap.
I think all the neighborhood kids can congregate in neighbors yard during afternoon even if it makes a lot of noise  
 52%  [ 74 ]
I think neighborhood kids should not congregate in one backyard and make so much noise if it bothers neighbors naps, they should go to a park  
 47%  [ 66 ]
Total Votes : 140



saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 1:28 pm
amother wrote:
It is not totally at the expense of your family. Your kids gain basic menschkite and learn to respect elderly gentleman.

Hopefully, your children will show this respect to others when they are in the same stage of life with multiple little kids.

Children learn what they live.


They weren't part of the decision making process. What they did learn was that now our schedule was to their detriment. They either had to nap in the car, take a later nap or miss out on doing something in the morning. If anything, it taught them that their needs were less important for no good reason.

Again, I don't think this is about menschlichkeit. I think it's disrespectful to ask someone to permanently change their schedule to make your schedule work when there are other options. For example, it's the difference between asking your neighbors to park in their driveway for an occasion vs asking your neighbors to ALWAYS park in the driveway.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 1:42 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
They weren't part of the decision making process. What they did learn was that now our schedule was to their detriment. They either had to nap in the car, take a later nap or miss out on doing something in the morning. If anything, it taught them that their needs were less important for no good reason.

Again, I don't think this is about menschlichkeit. I think it's disrespectful to ask someone to permanently change their schedule to make your schedule work when there are other options. For example, it's the difference between asking your neighbors to park in their driveway for an occasion vs asking your neighbors to ALWAYS park in the driveway.


At a different stage in life, you may understand why your other neighbors would consider you mean and inconsiderate for mowing your lawn Sunday 7:30 especially when you know it bothers the elderly gentleman.

We accommodate the elderly and others in our society. I think it is to the good. I certainly don't think napping children were part of the decision making process, but kids see and internalize what their parents do. This forms the adults they are.

Everyone can't be out for what is best for themselves.

What is wrong with parking in your driveway assuming it is a normal driveway?
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 2:05 pm
amother wrote:
At a different stage in life, you may understand why your other neighbors would consider you mean and inconsiderate for mowing your lawn Sunday 7:30 especially when you know it bothers the elderly gentleman.

We accommodate the elderly and others in our society. I think it is to the good. I certainly don't think napping children were part of the decision making process, but kids see and internalize what their parents do. This forms the adults they are.

Everyone can't be out for what is best for themselves.

What is wrong with parking in your driveway assuming it is a normal driveway?


We can accommodate the elderly, but they don't get an automatic pass (and let's be real, my neighbor is in his early 70s, younger than my stepfather who also lives on the block, and in fine shape).

People can't only be out for themselves, but they also need to look out for themselves.

Parking in your driveway is not a bad thing, but what's wrong with parking on the street? My street generally has ample parking and makes it a lot easier for my husband and I to deal with cars, use the right one for the right application or let my kids use the driveway for playing/riding etc. If my neighbor has an event and needs additional parking, no big deal to accommodate. If he wants me to park in my driveway all the time because it's better for him, that's unfair.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 2:06 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Right.

There's nothing wrong with OP bringing a babka next door, mentioning how nice the weather has been, and how she sees how much everyone is enjoying the new play equipment. And then mentioning how loud it gets, and asking if its possible if the kids could try to moderate their tones a little bit in the early afternoon, so they're playing joyfully without screaming. Although, of course, OP understands that kids will be kids.

Which is very different from enforcing quiet hours for most of the day. (And I'm not really sure if that came from OP or from others.)

While OP at the same time tries to address issues on her end by using a fan or white noise, closing windows, drawing drapes, or whatever else.


exactly! It is all in the approach and we know that even if they try their best, she will still need another way to drown out sounds.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 2:53 pm
interesting. so if 99 people in a neighborhood of 100 are great with an arrangement and norms but 1 person does not like it then the scale tips way over to the detriment of everyone else? Balance and compromise may be the key here. Its' not that majority rules but rather the norms of the community hold weight.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 2:59 pm
amother wrote:
interesting. so if 99 people in a neighborhood of 100 are great with an arrangement and norms but 1 person does not like it then the scale tips way over to the detriment of everyone else? Balance and compromise may be the key here. Its' not that majority rules but rather the norms of the community hold weight.


At no point did OP give us any insight into what norms may be commonly held to here. Or if there is any 'arrangement' in place.

She talked about her need for a nap.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 3:06 pm
amother wrote:
At no point did OP give us any insight into what norms may be commonly held to here. Or if there is any 'arrangement' in place.

She talked about her need for a nap.


She talked about the change in the character of the neighborhood. Prior to the installation of the playset, she could nap.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 3:14 pm
amother wrote:
She talked about the change in the character of the neighborhood. Prior to the installation of the playset, she could nap.


That's right.

A norm would look like 'up to this point in time everyone with playsets made a point of 'closing them' for an hour of menucha.

or 'up to this point in time everyone made a conscious decision not to purchase swing-sets because of the noise pollution".

based on the facts presented - this isn't that.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 3:22 pm
amother wrote:
That's right.

A norm would look like 'up to this point in time everyone with playsets made a point of 'closing them' for an hour of menucha.

or 'up to this point in time everyone made a conscious decision not to purchase swing-sets because of the noise pollution".

based on the facts presented - this isn't that.


Your post is ridiculous. No one said that families closed down their swing sets for an hour, nor did anyone say there were no swingset purchased because of noise pollution.

Did you even read the thread?

Up until recently, no one had a neighborhood playground in their backyard. OP just wants to return the neighborhood to the way it was with families playing in the yard.

Please stick to facts instead of making up wild scenarios.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 3:32 pm
amother wrote:
Your post is ridiculous. No one said that families closed down their swing sets for an hour, nor did anyone say there were no swingset purchased because of noise pollution.

Did you even read the thread?

Up until recently, no one had a neighborhood playground in their backyard. OP just wants to return the neighborhood to the way it was with families playing in the yard.

Please stick to facts instead of making up wild scenarios.


I think you misunderstood me.

I was explaining what a norm was, and how this new swingset, and the noise it brings isn't a change in norms... as there was a recent post here about norms. " if 99 people in a neighborhood of 100 are great with an arrangement and norms"
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amother
Oak


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 4:31 pm
amother wrote:
I think you misunderstood me.

I was explaining what a norm was, and how this new swingset, and the noise it brings isn't a change in norms... as there was a recent post here about norms. " if 99 people in a neighborhood of 100 are great with an arrangement and norms"


This post makes even less sense. Did you read the thread?

The existing norm was families used their backyards for the family and a normal amount of friends. OP is fine with that. And that is what she wants a return to for one hour on shabbos.

The big change in dynamics is the neighborhood congregated at her neighbor's house to play on the backyard equipment. It is an excessive amount of people.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 4:43 pm
amother wrote:
This post makes even less sense. Did you read the thread?

The existing norm was families used their backyards for the family and a normal amount of friends. OP is fine with that. And that is what she wants a return to for one hour on shabbos.

The big change in dynamics is the neighborhood congregated at her neighbor's house to play on the backyard equipment. It is an excessive amount of people.


I've been commenting on this thread a lot.

we are now debating on what 'community norms' means.

What I'm saying is just because something always was a certain way doesn't make a norm - it was 'just the way it was'.

Like if the neighborhood was all Jewish and a non-Jewish family moved in. that's not a change in norms. What would be a change in norms is if everyone agreed to only sell to Jews, and then someone decided not to.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 5:04 pm
And sometimes norms have to change when situations do.

Imagine buying a beautiful house in July. Its on the edge of the Jewish area, but you're OK with that.

Come December, there's a knock on your door. Where are your lights? What lights, you say? Your holiday lights! Its a block thing. Everyone does it. Your house is usually the Gingerbread Man. Uhh, we're Jewish, no lights. What do you mean? Its the norm. Its HOLIDAY lights, not Xmas. And Gingerbread Man isn't Xtian. Let's get moving. I've got the ladder, and can help you put them up right now. If you don't, it will ruin the whole block vibe. And we won't win the Best Decorated Street Contest.

Now here you are, ruining the community norm. And changing their quality of life.

Same thing happens when families with small kids move into an area. Things change. Norms change.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Fri, May 04 2018, 6:31 pm
Wishing everyone a peaceful restful joyous shabbos!
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Sun, May 06 2018, 11:36 am
It was much quieter this shabbos, we had the air conditioner on part of the time but the other times it was still much quieter than last week and there were less kids. thank you!
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 06 2018, 11:38 am
amother wrote:
It was much quieter this shabbos, we had the air conditioner on part of the time but the other times it was still much quieter than last week and there were less kids. thank you!


Glad to hear that it is working out! Did you say anything to them or did fewer kids simply show up?

Maybe the novelty wore off.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Sun, May 06 2018, 11:54 am
southernbubby wrote:
Glad to hear that it is working out! Did you say anything to them or did fewer kids simply show up?

Maybe the novelty wore off.


Or maybe the neighbor read this thread Wink ?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 06 2018, 11:58 am
amother wrote:
Or maybe the neighbor read this thread Wink ?




I never thought of that Scratching Head but I'll bet you're correct! Very Happy
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Mon, May 07 2018, 12:59 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Glad to hear that it is working out! Did you say anything to them or did fewer kids simply show up?

Maybe the novelty wore off.

We didn't want to say anything, but maybe they read this.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 07 2018, 2:10 pm
amother wrote:
We didn't want to say anything, but maybe they read this.



look what we accomplished!
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