Why cover your hair when wearing a mini skirt??

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:47 am

allthingsblue wrote:

It seems you were really bothered by the fact that it was a mini skirt. But why? If it would have been a skirt just a tad above the knees, would you have had the same reaction? According to your logic, a little but above the knees should be just as bad as a mini skirt...

Bottom line- this is a huge challenge in today's day and age. I myself find it a lot harder to cover my knees than to cover my hair. Covering my hair actually makes life easier; I don't have to shower every night like I used to for fresh looking hair.
Also, in some circles (probably yours, too!) uncovering the hair is a much bolder statement than uncovering the knees.

Of course not covering the knees an inch or several inches are the same, I never said otherwise. The fact is that for some time now, it has somehow become almost the norm, or “okay”to wear skirts that are an inch or two above the knees. That doesn’t surprise me any more, as I see more and more frum women doing it... but this skirt was at the middle of her thigh, something not seen nearly as often.

watergirl

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:49 am

shiaeisen wrote:

You make a lot of sense and appreciate your honesty and self awareness. As far as some of the others, so “outraged” by what I wrote, I’d bet that they themselves are lacking in proper tznius, and are merely trying to justify it and ease their own guilt or lack thereof, by attacking me. It’s all good. Everyone has their own relationship with G-d but justifying behavior that does not conform with Halacha is just dishonest.

Wow. You dont know any of us.
How many things do you do that dont conform with halacha? Do you live a 100% yashardig life? I know that there are many areas that I need to work on. But I’m GROWING. Not dishonest.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:49 am

anon for this wrote:

I am aware of that. I probably should have said that I personally don't feel that I am affected by a woman wearing a mini-skirt.

For those who feel that way, though, it seems to me that the sort of judgement expressed in the OP is counterproductive. Personally, I do wear my skirts and sleeves long. But if I don't, whether because I'm more comfortable that way or because that's where I am spiritually, someone who considers me ridiculous or hypocritical is unlikely to convince me to change. However, if I sense that the other person accepts me as someone who's trying her best, then she may be able to inspire me to dress differently, or at least to change how I dress around her.

If you do feel that a woman dressing in a certain way is an aveirah that affects other people more than most, doesn't it make sense to try to react in a way that's most likely to change her behavior?

And are you even aware of how I reacted IN FRONT OF HER? Or are you just assuming you know? Now who’s the one being judgmental? And obviously I haven’t affected her behavior in any way, because I was driving when I saw here and did not react at all.

healthymom1

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:51 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Actually you’re quite wrong; it IS our business, as we have sons and husbands who may be guilty of aveiros of looking or thinking lewd thoughts when seeing these types of dress on the streets, as well as, and more importantly, our halachic obligation to speak up when we see someone committing an aveira. Had I not been driving when I saw this woman, I might’ve stopped her, said hello, and delicately suggested that perhaps she might thing about adding to her mitzvah of covering her hair by also covering up a little more of the rest...it’s something that has to be done with sensitivity and diplomacy but nevertheless it is an obligation, no matter how uncomfortable.

We are not punished because a man may not have self control. There are many men who can walk down the street and not check out every undresssd woman. We keep tznius for ourselves and yes for our nation. But it is not because of the men. A man looking is not the base of where our mitzvos of tznius comes from. if you don't want your husband or sons to look teach them the importance of keeping their minds neshama pure = teach them how to gain self control.
Yes in a perfect world we would all dress tznius. But that doesn't mean we would all dress the same. There isn't only 1 way to follow the Torah. But the base of the Torah is to not judge others and love our neighbors like ourselves. Mashiach can and will still come if we are in pants covering our hair. But he will not come if we sit and judge others and worry about making everyone into the same box.

I do agree that if someone goes to a more religious area, out of respecr they should try and dress more modest.

The Torah isn't an all or nothing lifestyle. We are all growing (hopefully). Taking steps that we are able to.

Last edited by healthymom1 on Fri, May 04 2018, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

Forrealx

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:55 am

[quote="shiaeisen"]

anon for this wrote:

I am aware of that. I probably should have said that I personally don't feel that I am affected by a woman wearing a mini-skirt./quote]

Totally missing the point. And are you also so sure your husband, or sons (if you have) are also not affected?

Men can also be affected by women who are tznius trust me... That is not my fault we as humans tend to look at beautiful things. For me, as (a married) woman I'm still often affected by men.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:55 am

jkl wrote:

I did. What's extreme about not caring how another person covers their body, especially related to religious concerns? Like I said above, that's between Hashem and her, not between me and her.

The best position in life to take is to worry about someone's else gashmiyus and your own ruchniyos.

In contrast to what you say The Torah says, that’s exactly the same attitude as saying “Who cares if the person in the other end of the boat I’m in makes a hole on their side of the boat? It won’t affect me!”

momnaturally

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:00 am

anon for this wrote:

I think what bothers her and what bothers op as well is that when a person wears a sheitel in a frum community that means they identify as part of that community. So when they come dressed with a miniskirt and short sleeves it makes it more acceptable for the next person who's skirt is questionable to feel comfortable and the next woman who never would have contemplated wearing a mini skirt all of a sudden it's not totally rejected. Take another dozen women who start with mini skirts and all of a sudden it became acceptable and don't be judgemental...so a lot more people lose their sensitivity to tznius.
If she shed the Shaitel in a way it's better because then she is not taking down the standards rather she is identifying as part of a different class/community of people.
Most people are affected by others especially if they are part of the same affiliation
Op was not trying to help the lady with a miniskirt. She was trying to hold on to her own sensitivities and I totally am with her on it.

Last edited by momnaturally on Fri, May 04 2018, 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:01 am

jkl wrote:

Not to sidetrack this thread, but imo the recent lapse in tznius is an outgrowth of the extreme clampdown on tznius of late. When you push so far, it will have an opposite effect. There were so many new rules implemented, many of which made no sense at all, that it caused people to start backing away from it all. The multitude of new rules blurred the lines between the significant and insignificant ones and lumped them all together. It has caused people to become more indifferent and apathetic towards tznius instead of creating any warmth and passion for it.

What “extreme clampdown of tznius” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such thing at all. And I highly doubt even if there was one, that that would make more than only a small percentage want to rebel and do the opposite. Rabbi Eli Mansour shlita even said to a roomful of women (mostly sefardi) that he must speak up and tell the truth, and the truth is that HIS community needs to try harder to cover up. Is he being judgmental or not understanding enough too? If anything, sefardi women have more of a reason or justification to not dress more with tznius, because that’s how they all grew up, and their parents and grandparents did the same. In the ashkenzi community, with a huge percentage having gone to frum schools in which it was expected to dress covered up, there’s no excuse of not having known better.

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:02 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Indeed you’re right, and for those of us who have sons, there certainly is a reason to be upset, aside from any halachic problems the woman has...and for those speaking about my “self righteous attitude,” I’d suggest YOU reread your posts here and decide whether YOU are the one acting self righteous now!

I think this is a good lesson to your sons and your husband that you can't always control the environment you are in, so you should have some ideas for when you encounter women who you might have impure thoughts about. Since you seem to live in NYC, there are plenty of women walking around in tank tops and shorts and sandals and bareheaded. Focus on teaching your family self control, how to look away, even how not to notice.

Or you can just throw rotten tomatoes at women who you think are improperly dressed.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:02 am

jkl wrote:

Bottom line is, people who care about Halacha and want to do the right thing, will not be improperly swayed or caused to rebel just because they feel the Torah or community put pressure on them.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:03 am

heidi wrote:

Admittedly I also don't conform to OP's standards of tzniut bcz. I don't wear stockings and do wear open toed shoes (as per R' Moshe) but I have to admit that I understand her feelings. I really really try not to be judgy. But there's something about that woman standing in shul on YK, davening her heart out, wearing cap sleeves and a hairband as a headcovering. ON YOM KIPPUR, it makes me nuts. So yes, I know I should appreciate that she's davening, and for goodness sake, mind my own business and focus on my own aveirot which are probably more plentiful than hers. And I try. But my knee jerk reaction is why?? If you care so much, why not cover yourself up a bit more.
So I understand OP's feeling.

Your honesty and self awareness are refreshing, and also rare on this thread.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:06 am

moonstone wrote:

This is why I could never live in an insular community where everything you wear, eat and do is put under a microscope and judged incessantly. In my community it's very common to see women covering their hair (or not) and wearing short sleeves/pants/short skirts. And I consider them more religious than a lot of the "religious" women I see on this board. My friends wouldn't judge others like this. Honestly, no one gives a darn.

But aren’t YOU in fact being judgmental of the “religious women on this board that you SEE” by admittedly considering them less religious than the ones you see in your community????

moonstone

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:08 am

shiaeisen wrote:

WHAT?? You would have opened your mouth to someone about something that is absolutely none of your business? Unbelievable. What a busybody! If I'd been that woman and you'd given me that cute little lecture, rest assured I would have had a few choice words for you. Rolling Eyes

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:08 am

fleetwood wrote:

I live in Brooklyn and honestly could care less what people do. I have a friend who wears pants and a wig!! Who cares?? And most of my friends don't care either. Brooklyn is the opposite of an insular community! Live and let live. It really doesn't affect you at all.

Again, see previous posts. For every look and thought a man has that’s caused by a woman dressed inappropriately they BOTH get the sin. Do you have sons? Or don’t you care about his and your DH’s spiritual well-being? Again, I imagine most of the people here with this attitude are indifferent because of their own struggles in conforming to Halacha of tznius.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:10 am

Forrealx wrote:

In my community most married women are wearing hats and skirts in shul, outside shul they are wearing short sleeves, pants, skirts without stockings etc.
When I was younger I was more involved in Chabad circles where I was covered from neck to toe, I also went to a lot of Chabad houses (and I still do with dh) on city trips and then I heard the assumption that Lubavitcher women in CH are like '' Only need to cover my hair when I'm married and that is what I do'' it is not 100% true it is an exaggeration which I hear often. And sometimes I really could reckon the girls who were from CH and who weren't from CH, their skirts were shorter, some did not wear stockings, the necklines where lower.
For me I don't care. Even when I visit Antwerp for business reasons and I walk in the Jewish quarter and go to their stores I wear a decent trousers. Had once a coversation with this haredi women when I was clothing very haredi ''What if I came to this store with decent trousers not denim but you know decent and a decent blouse? And I was asking the same thing, buying a shabbosrobe for if I'm at Chabad friends for chag/shabbos and I want to go to the toilet and be more dressed?'' ''Oh'' she said ''I would help you I would think she is not chassidish or haredi she is a MO girl who respects her more observant friends'' and now since the Chabad derech is not my way anymore I visit this store in trousers very funny.

Ok my opinion is just let her way, maybe she is not jewish at all? That hair disease wich causes hairloss can be the reason of chas ve shalom cncr can be the reason. Don't judge it.

Again she was wearing a snood, not wig. That aside, one big Rov (forget who at the moment) said that in fact a woman is better off wearing pants than an untzniusdig skirt because less shows.

watergirl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:12 am

shiaeisen wrote:

The achrayis is on your sons to guard their eyes. There is no nisayon if there is no work for them to do. They have a part to play.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:14 am

[quote="SpottedBanana"]
the biggest risk factor for not being tznuah is not caring all that much about halacha.

How does this affect us? It does affect the quality of the neighborhood, e.g. peer pressure for teens and also for adults, and a short skirt on an otherwise frum women is a subtle banner reading "I care more about fashion/looking good than) quote

BINGO! One of the few her that actually gets it! I can only conclude that those so vehemently defending the lack of tznius are thos who themselves are lacking and trying to justify their own behavior. Otherwise, why the outrage????