Need help from experienced mothers of teen daughters please!

baltomom

Sun, May 06 2018, 11:24 pm

As a mother of teenage girls, I commiserate with you!! My comments are:

It doesn't sound to me like your daughter was trying to be rebellious in buying the skirt. She just wanted to buy something cute and "in" and didn't realize how short it actually was. Especially for someone tall, it's hard to find skirts that are long enough--sadly, even in the frum stores. (My daughter has gotten clothes with my approval, and then a few weeks later when she put it on the first time, I realized it was too short. Did she grow? Did it shrink? Did she gain a pound or two that made the whole thing sit differently? Who knows! Whatever the case may be, I went out that night with her to find her something tzniusdik to wear the next day--and I hate shopping!) To hopefully avoid this in the future, have her try on all purchases at home to show you so they can be returned immediately if you see they are inappropriate (for any reason).

Her panicky reaction when you told her it was too short was not about "Why is my mother imposing these tznius rules on me?" but "Oh no, now I have nothing to wear to school Shabbos!" The girls feel very pressured to look good at these events. (One of my daughters wore combinations of old clothes the whole Pesach in 9th grade so that her outfit would be new for school Shabbos--and nobody would chas v'shalom see her wearing an outfit a second time!) The right thing to do now is to go with her to buy something new that she will feel good about--much as you may hate shopping and spending all the excess money.

I completely identify with being triggered by accusing comments about how you don't give her enough, do enough for her, etc. It isn't always about the money (whether you can afford it or not) but about attitudes towards materialism, keeping up with the Joneses, etc. Replies such as "Everyone chooses what they spend their money on, and these are our choices" or "Does EVERYONE really have that or just a few loud girls?" may or may not be helpful (likely not at the moment, but maybe one day??). Probably the best response (and it's tough to keep saying this when you're being attacked!) is some variation of a validating "It's hard when you don't have things that other people have." Giving some sort of budget or allowance (for clothing, extracurricular activities, or whatever) may also be empowering for your daughter, as it allows her to choose some of the things that others have and realize which ones are of value to her.

Hatzlacha! Hopefully things will get easier as she moves from the (very insecure) lower teen years to the upper teen years.

amother

Khaki

Sun, May 06 2018, 11:32 pm

baltomom wrote:

I feel like you really understand my daughter and the situation, and your advice is really helpful, thank you!

amother

Khaki

Sun, May 06 2018, 11:32 pm

baltomom wrote:

I feel like you really understand my daughter and the situation, and your advice is really helpful, thank you!

amother

Babypink

Mon, May 07 2018, 7:09 am

Can you spend a few minutes every day trying to imagine what your daughter is going through daily?
Social pressure to have friends, the right clothes, the right hairstyle, not to say the wrong thing, not to stand out...
Academic pressure to sit all day and pay attention, do well in school, homework out of school.
Familial obligation like chores.
Hormonal changes, body changes...

Your poor daughter is under constant pressure and when something goes wrong at home, it's just the straw that breaks the camel's back.
If you have all this in mind, when she explodes at you you will realize that its not personal, but a release of all the stress she has been holding all day in the one place she feels secure enough to lat go - with you.
Can you reframe to remind yourself that this really means she knows you love her enough that getting upset at you or being rude to you really just shows she knows that your love is unconditional?

And IMHO, it's not the reminders of halacha that turn children off, its the fight that ensues and the damage to relationship from the fighting.

Chayalle

Mon, May 07 2018, 10:13 am

I haven't gotten thru everything in this thread, but as the mother of teens, a few thoughts come to mind.

OP, you've surely realized by now how important it is to personally shop with your teens, if you want certain standards to be adhered to. Teens want to do the right thing, but looking with it and fitting in is a powerful pull. I remember being in the store and DD trying on a skirt that was just.too.short and assuring her that we will B"EH find something nicer that is also tznius. Your teen needs you there to be that voice of reason when she is shopping. If for some reason she has shopped with someone else, you need to see it on her as soon as she gets home, so that it can be returned if it's not appropriate. Assure her that you will find something nice, B"EH, that is also tznius.

Before I take my teens shopping, I say a Tefillah in my own words asking Hashem to help us find clothes that are pleasing to them and also tznius. I say that I am shopping for them L'shem Shomayim and Hashem should help me afford what they need. After that, I keep my mouth shut and somehow pay whatever it costs. (This is not my own idea, a dear friend of mine shared this with me.)

I try to keep my mouth shut about prices of clothes for my girls, so they should feel that they will have what they need, we will manage. I feel that it's important for them to feel that what they genuinely need will be met. That doesn't mean we will be able to afford everything - far from it - and there are things out there that we don't need. So if they need a new dress, and it's going to cost, we will B"EH have the money.

I feel really sad for the poster whose daughter skipped out on school Shabbos due to the stress. I might not be popular for saying this, but your daughter would benefit from professional help if anxiety is preventing her from enjoying the normal things that teens are usually part of. I say this as one who, as a teen, did not always have nice clothes and fit in with peers, and still went and enjoyed school shabbos.

FranticFrummie

Mon, May 07 2018, 12:47 pm

OP, what I'm hearing from you is that you are asking for guidance on your feelings about your daughter, and how to defuse arguments with her that are triggering for you.

BTDT!

I find that the best thing to do is to listen to her complain, while making a full effort to remove yourself emotionally from the situation.

Validate her feelings, even if you don't see them from her point of view. "You seem very upset about your wardrobe. You are worried that the other kids will think badly of you. You sound like you are worried about money." etc. Make her feel heard.

Team up with her. Help her take ownership of her situation, and together you two can brainstorm a solution. This makes her feel in control, and takes some of the pressure off of you to "fix everything."

Don't forget to keep breathing! Slow, deep breaths. This is not a serious crisis.

Practice "Radical Gratitude". Mention out loud how grateful you are to have things in your life, like a roof over your head, electricity, clean water, food in the fridge, etc. (It's best to start when kids are little, but it's never too late.) Your attitude will eventually affect the whole household. The woman sets the tone in the home!

My DD can be incredibly dramatic. I have a visualization technique I use. I picture her as a sudden rainstorm, and I'm standing there with an umbrella. My umbrella is made of emotional boundaries, and refusing to get sucked into her emotions. From the safety of my umbrella, I can safely engage with her while she's emotional, and stay sane.

Once the rainstorm passes and the sun comes out (and it always does, eventually) I can talk with her logically. Because of my umbrella, I did not get soaking wet, so I don't feel resentful.

If you think I'm making it sound easy, keep this in mind. My DD has Borderline Personality Disorder, and cuts herself when she's upset. How do you stay sane with that?

I've found that the more I remove my triggers and just let her rage, the safer she feels, and the less she tantrums and cuts. She loves that I don't react emotionally and feed into her disorder. She knows that I love her, and that she can count on me to not get swept away with her problems. She doesn't see me as cold and unfeeling, she sees me as an anchor.

mommy201

Mon, May 07 2018, 1:18 pm

OP, you sound like an amazing mother! For real! I don't have much experience with teenagers but one thing I noticed you wrote, that may help. You wrote, that your daughter wouldn't want her friends/teachers to judge/look at her a certain way. This is putting emphasis on that what other people do/say/look, matter. Think of it the other way around. Let's say she was going to an event where everyone did wear short skirts, would you tell her that she should wear a short skirt so that no one should judge her? I assume not. Maybe emphasize to her that the principles that you and hopefully she holds dear, is because it is the right thing to do and not because other people will talk/look..... We should want to do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not because of peer pressure, which normal teenagers have too much of it already. Let's not add to it. Perhaps if you show her that you don't care what other people think, you do what you think is right because it's right, that might help alleviate some of the peer-pressure she is going through.
Regarding the comparing to her wealthier friends, that must be so hard since every parent want to give to their children and keep them happy. Just empathize with her when she brings it up and agree that it is hard not to buy everything you see. The validation may help her feel more at peace with herself.

Chayalle

Mon, May 07 2018, 1:25 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I'm not the OP but I do agree with her basic message to her DD, which is - our clothes say something about ourselves. I think it's fine to make our teens aware that their clothes tell others about who we are - so are they in sync with how you want others to think about you?

On school shabbos, if a girl is wearing a short skirt, her school will not view her as being on par with tznius, if she's in a school where longer skirts are expected. Does she want that reputation? What image does she want to project?

mommy201

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:05 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I hear what you are saying and it very much explains society today. We are human and it is almost impossible not to care at all about our image. However, making sure we look a certain way to get others to think a certain way about us, is purely a societal pressure, not a Jewish concept. I understand why mothers want to protect their childrens image to how the appear to others, but it's all due to a society that judges. Technically, why should someone see something differently just because a skirt is 4 inches or 1 inch. What counts is the pnimis. Unfortunately due all the judgement we receive and societal pressure, people don't do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, they do it for other non-ruchniusdig reasons. I just think it's a good point to start teaching our children that we do what's right for the right reasons. It'll bring up much healthier, well-balanced children.

Note, this is not at all any way to put down the OP. Most mothers are like that, since we all fall to societal pressures. I just wanted to elaborate on a point I noticed.

SixOfWands

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:21 pm

amother wrote:

My daughter went shopping before Pesach in the frum stores with my mother, who isn'tvery good with clothes, and let my ddaughter make her own selections. My daughter bought a summery blouse and skirt, it was too cold to wear it on Pesach, so she decided to save it for school Shabbos after Shavuos.

She tried it on today, and the skirt is way to short (we go by 4" below the knee, it was maybe 1/2" below, she's tall, it's extremely short on her.). She's insisting it's because she gained weight, is bloated, it wasn't that short when she tried it on, and she will starve herself and by school Shabbos it will fit perfectly.

Obviously that's all ridiculous, she simply selected a skirt that's too short because its really cute, and it was tempting. I told her even if she magically loses five pounds (which is a joke because she's very slim right now), the skirt is just too short and we need to see if we can return it or give it away.

She said "it's not to short!" To which I responded "The halacha is four inches below, and it never will be ok according to halacha (the style is such that it can't be altered or lengthened.), and if that doesn't motivate you, if you go to school Shabbos in that skirt, you will be making a statement to your friends and teachers that you wear short skirts (she is very motivated by peer approval and teacher approval, and is part of a frum, tznius oriented peer group.). I know that's not what you want, honey, so why would you do that to yourself?"

She freaked out, crying "No, no, no, what am I going to doooo??? No, I'm wearing it! I have nothing else cute enough to wear!" (She has many other Shabbos outfits, but this is obviously the newest, latest style.)

I said, "Sweetie, we'll have to see about getting you something else..."

To which she responded "You and Totty don't have enough money to buy me another skirt!"
and slammed the door.

I feel very triggered and humiliated by her response about our ability to buy her a new skirt. I feel accused and belittled. She has been comparing herself to wealthier friends and complaining that we don't have fancy enough things (clothes, cars, etc) a lot lately. I am so sad.

I want to handle this well...can you please help me process her response and use this as a teaching moment?

OP, I think you need to separate what your DD said from how it made you feel.

It doesn't sound like she intended to accuse or belittle you, or that she was comparing anyone. She stated a fact -- there's not enough money for a new skirt. It doesn't sound like she meant to be hurtful, as opposed to being hurt herself.

The shabbaton IS a big deal, and she was acting like a normal teen. Which isn't to say she acted appropriately. She didn't.

I'd talk to her about her reaction, and tell her that you want to brainstorm about how you can solve the problem.

You can see if the store will allow you to exchange the skirt for a more appropriate one, with the two of you splitting any difference in cost.

You can see if she can pass the skirt on to a sister, and you'll pay 1/2 for a new one. Or sell it, and you'll split the different cost.

You can see if the skirt can be altered.

You can look online for a similar skirt at a retailer that caters to taller women (Long Tall Sally is the one I know, but there must be others), and figure out how she can work off whatever it costs

Fox

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:37 pm

This isn't really about skirts, tznius, shopping, or money. There are two things going on: getting mom's goat and saving face.

How Do You Get Your Mother's Goat?
You find out where it's tied, of course. Teenage girls (and even formerly teenaged girls, I have found) are experts at knowing where your "goat" is tied.

So when they make those sharper-than-razor comments that wound us all to the quick, they are responding not to objective facts, but to our insecurities, worries, disappointments, and fears.

There is only one way to play this: move your goat. And keep moving that goat as long as necessary. Make up your mind that you are not going to show how hurt you are. When she makes a comment about money or lack thereof, act as if you have absolutely no idea what she's talking about. When she describes the wonderful lives of her friends, who coincidentally have more money, act genuinely pleased for them. "Wow! A trip to the Bahamas! How great! I hope they have fun!" Nobody uses an arguing tactic that doesn't work, so she'll gradually realize that her arrows aren't having the desired effect.

When you're able to camouflage your hurt feelings adequately, feel free to up the ante and actually joke about her little digs. When she says something like, "And I can't buy a new one because you and Dad never have any money," you can say something like, "I know. Popping for that Lamborghini last month was probably a mistake."

This is not to suggest being callous to your DD's genuine disappointments -- just refusing to allow her to manipulate your insecurities or stresses.

Saving Face
Teenagers have a tremendous sense of their own dignity, and some have more than others. When you back them into corners where they will be forced to admit stupidity or naivete, they will fight like rabid animals. I suspect that's what happened here. DD felt that her judgment or commitment to tznius was being challenged, so she dug in her heels.

People are more willing to accept responsibility and make needed changes when we don't rub their noses in it.

You know, we know, and your DD knows that the skirt was too short when she bought it. Who knows why she got it; maybe it had something to do with the phases of the moon. But act as surprised as she seems to be. "Huh! It's too short now. I wonder how that could have happened. Well, if it's too late to take it back, we'll have to think of another solution." Don't publicly affix blame. Focus on problem-solving. When your DD is allowed to maintain a little dignity, she's more likely to learn from the episode and do better next time.

Hatzlacha!

Chayalle

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:46 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I think that making sure that our Hashkafos and our way of dress are in sync, so that the message in our appearance is what we want it to be, is definitely a Jewish concept. You are right, it should be less about image, and perhaps more about de-emphasizing image.

As an aside, I think that when schools make ridiculous rules about dress codes that are more about being preppy and having a perfect image, they actually take away from the girls really learning about what tznius is.

I'm not into the 4" actually - I went thru years of attending RW BY schools where I learned about tznius, without ever hearing about 4". It's a new invention, and I think measuring for the 4" is degrading. I prefer to teach my daughters the same way I was taught, which is - put on the skirt or dress, plop down on a chair and check if the item covers your knees adequately in all positions.

However, every household has its own rules and standards, and I respect the OP's efforts to raise her teen according to her own family standards.

amother

Slategray

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:50 pm

OP, this is not a direct response to your post.

When I was a teenager, my mother was not in an emotionally healthy place. I felt extremely protective of her, her needs and her feelings. I would have never dared ask for a new skirt, let alone argue. It took me years to understand how wrong and unhealthy the whole dynamic was.

Now, when I see teenagers clearly express their wants and needs to their mothers, and maybe even go a bit overboard in the chutzpah department, it actually makes me feel good.

It shows that the parent is doing something right, helping the child come into their own sense of identity, and understand their own wants and needs without unhealthy manipulative tactics or guilt.

I know this doesn't really help you solve this particular situation, but I wanted to just give you that boost. I think other posters here had great suggestions.

mommy201

Mon, May 07 2018, 2:56 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I'm with you. I think it's more the school's effort to control everything, which never really teaches anyone anything.