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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shavuos
Anyone else find the "all night learning" superficial?
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 8:50 pm
Husband and I are both younger BTs and don't yet have kids, so we go to a lot of shiurs, classes, etc (together and separate single gender ones) on all sorts of topics throughout the year.

There are tons of Shavuot "all night learning" opportunities in our community put on by many great rabbis and other speakers. We've been doing this for the past 3-4 years or so, and we're disappointed every year. Even rabbis/speakers we like give a more "dumbed down" version of their usual talks. We find the quality of the learning to be sub-par and superficial, and we kind of feel that the whole thing is overrated. The whole thing feels like "amateur hour" -- and the quality of the learning and the experience we do throughout the year is way better than what it is on Shavuot night.

Anyone else feel this way? I feel like these things are kind of sacrilege to say to other people our the community, and you're supposed to just say it's all so wonderful. There's pressure in the community to conform and toot the party line, but we can't be the only one thinking this.

I'm not sure I get what some of these guys are trying to accomplish forcing themselves to stay up all night barely paying attention to a talk at 3:30am that they're instantly going to forget. Isn't the sum total of all the Torah you've actually learned in the past year more important than being a walking zombie for one night and sitting through a few classes?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 8:56 pm
I'm with you. I have ling since decided that I don't learn well when tired.

But I know a lot of people, including my DS, and DSIL, who say that there is something special about it.

You might want to bring the issue up with your mentors and see if they have any tips.
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fbmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:05 pm
The real in depth learning is obviously done with chavrusos inside a sefer and not a lecture.
Its hard to say if its better off not learning if its not done right..
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:15 pm
Maybe you need to look elsewhere. All night learning is not the exclusive purview of the intellectually gifted who are also blessed with great stamina. It’s also for the common people who may not have your intellectual capacity to begin with, or who are incapable or not interested in mental weight-lifting past nine p.m. Why don’t you collect a cadre of your intellectual friends and organize your own mental Olympic games?
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shirachadasha




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:25 pm
I think it can be compared to hakafos on Simchas Torah. On the one hand you could argue that if you really valued the Torah, you would stop dancing and just get to learning. On the other hand, there's a value in the communal celebration that hopefully leads to a re-kindling of enthusiasm which perpetuates more Torah learning after the celebration is over.
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:27 pm
zaq wrote:
Maybe you need to look elsewhere. All night learning is not the exclusive purview of the intellectually gifted who are also blessed with great stamina. It’s also for the common people who may not have your intellectual capacity to begin with, or who are incapable or not interested in mental weight-lifting past nine p.m. Why don’t you collect a cadre of your intellectual friends and organize your own mental Olympic games?


Always got to be a smart aleck on here! I don't have the stamina either. When did I say I did? The whole point is that most people don't have the stamina.
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erm




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:28 pm
Learning all night is for the men. While women can stay up, they don't have that special mitzvah. It could be you are going to speeches geared for women attending and so the speakers "dumb it down." A lot of men speakers, speak differently when they speak to a female audience. It could be because they assume our background in gemorah isn't as strong. They also are probably taking into account the audiences' alertness at that hour.
My husband learns gemorah with a chavrusah. He listens to our Rav's speech in the middle, but he mostly learns one on one.
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nachlaot




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:32 pm
shirachadasha wrote:
I think it can be compared to hakafos on Simchas Torah. On the one hand you could argue that if you really valued the Torah, you would stop dancing and just get to learning. On the other hand, there's a value in the communal celebration that hopefully leads to a re-kindling of enthusiasm which perpetuates more Torah learning after the celebration is over.

This could very well be the answer, and I find it true about a lot of things in orthodox judaism. The communal benefit is more important than the individual benefit.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:44 pm
fbmommy wrote:
The real in depth learning is obviously done with chavrusos inside a sefer and not a lecture.
Its hard to say if its better off not learning if its not done right..

Nothing in life is one-size-fits-all. About burial garments I'm not sure.

Everyone should do what works for them, not for you, and not for me.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:44 pm
Some of it might be superficial. My understanding of these lectures/shiurim - many of which look downright fascinating! - is that they give people a chance to be up all night engaged in Torah even if they don't have the skills or the zitsfleisch to learn inside all night. (Some people might mix and match - go to a shiur and learn on their own or with a chavrusa.)

I know many men who do not learn all night. They try to stay up a bit later to learn but feel that they can maximize their learning on Shavuos by sleeping well. OTOH, they do appreciate the idea behind the learning all night: to demonstrate passion for Torah.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:46 pm
erm wrote:
Learning all night is for the men. While women can stay up, they don't have that special mitzvah.

See my previous post. Anyone may learn all night. Anyone may also decide that what works best for them is to get a full night's sleep and head to shul in the morning.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:54 pm
nachlaot wrote:
Always got to be a smart aleck on here! I don't have the stamina either. When did I say I did? The whole point is that most people don't have the stamina.


My apologies if I read you wrong, but your tone was decidedly contemptuous, or do you not think that the term “dumbed down” is offensive? Not even”watered down” which is at least polite, but DUMBED down?

You certainly have the right to stay away from all-night learning if you get nothing out of it, but you do not have the right to declare that learning that is not at the highest level has no value. You may turn up your nose at anything less than a four-course meal, but why should you object if other people are satisfied with a rice cake?
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 9:56 pm
zaq wrote:
My apologies if I read you wrong, but your tone was decidedly contemptuous, or do you not think that the term “dumbed down” is offensive? Not even”watered down” which is at least polite, but DUMBED down?

You certainly have the right to stay away from all-night learning if you get nothing out of it, but you do not have the right to declare that learning that is not at the highest level has no value. You may turn up your nose at anything less than a four-course meal, but why should you object if other people are satisfied with a rice cake?


(wondering if that was an intentional throwback to a prior OP thread...??)
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 11:09 pm
Unfortunately, the only mitzvos for Shavuos require the Beis Hamikdash. Without it, all we have to make it special are the minhagim. That's why people make a big deal about dairy meals and all night learning. It's what makes Shavuos...Shavuos. There's no halacha to stay up all night, and it's true that most of the learning (especially after midnight) is superficial, but it is a strong minhag and let's face it, it's not every day you can stay up all night, all the more so to learn Torah! Also, because it is such a strong minhag, the shul programs really need to cater to everyone. I have very fond memories of staying up all night with my father, and the feeling of pride seeing the sun rise and realizing you made it. There is something special to it. I haven't done it since having kids and I do miss it and hope to do it again when they're older.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2018, 11:48 pm
You are going to the wrong place OP...

Some years I go to Bais Torah in Monsey.. I am so not a night person. But he really keeps me interested all night. Its the best lectures I hear all year.

One year I went to the YU pgm at a hotel. There was all nite learning both nites, It was really awesome..
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2018, 1:34 am
In our community, the sheer volume of Torah learning that is compressed into this one night is what makes it special.
Most people that I know (and kids too) try to attend at least one of the earlier shiurim. The town is full of people streaming from one shul to the next, throughout the entire night (okay, at 3 in the morning it's really more of a trickle...). There's something for everyone, in a variety of languages and levels, as long as you're willling to hoof it to whichever shul it's being given at.
I think the real value of the minhag lies in the love and appreciation that is shown to the Torah on this holiday, the day of Matan Torah. The way I see it, the staying up into the night is a symbolic demonstration of mesirut nefesh to Torah study, that on this holiday scholar and layman can perform equally regardless of the actual level of learning.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2018, 1:52 am
It’s a minhag started because the morning of Matan Torah Everyone slept in.
Dh stays up, I don’t. He says the tikkun Leil Shavuos and learns something he’s been wanting to for the remaining hour or two. If you don’t like the lectures, learn on your own or find a better place to go.
Or go to sleep.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2018, 2:21 am
There’s something about the excitement and energy that goes into the night. I’m not a night person so it’s not for me ( at least in this stage of my life) but I still think it’s special to stay up, even if you don’t actually learn a lot, almost like how when you are first in love and can stay up all night talking ( even if your conversations don’t make any sense).
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2018, 6:47 am
When made into a trend and a socialization, yes.

FTR I never grew up with it being a whoopla like this, and certainly not a pressure on women.
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happyone




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2018, 6:53 am
I find it beautiful! In our community the women dont learn for the most part. If you walk into any shul the amount of men and boys learning is overwhelmingly special. Many men are hard working people that don't have the time to open a seder, yet shvuous ALL come together and as one learn Torah. The serious learners , to those with less time, to those with little interest, most make their way to shul to participate in some or most of the nights learning .
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