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Iymnok
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 Sun, May 13 2018, 9:41 am
| amother wrote: | Its not there unless someone with power said it should be. Most likely your grandparents themselves in a advance directive. Or your parents.
Its not mass murder. Its kindness. Its kindness to allow a person to die in his or her time. Its kindness not to prolong suffering. Its kindness not to prolong death. Which is very different from prolonging life.
We had this recently with a relative who didn’t have an advance directive, and didn’t give anyone a medical power of attorney. Hospital was forced to take ridiculous steps, like intubating a 90 year old man when there was no hope of his ever waking up or leaving the hospital.
As to changing a chart, any medical professional who does that would lose their license. The hospital would be subject to severe sanctions, or be closed down. You really think they’re going to do that? Honestly, no one cares enough about your grandparents to risk their livelihood and future. |
It’s not kindness.
It’s a halachic shaila. There are times it must be done, and times not. It’s not that simple and never is.
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lavenderchimes
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Sun, May 13 2018, 9:50 am
| amother wrote: | Its not there unless someone with power said it should be. Most likely your grandparents themselves in a advance directive. Or your parents.
Its not mass murder. Its kindness. Its kindness to allow a person to die in his or her time. Its kindness not to prolong suffering. Its kindness not to prolong death. Which is very different from prolonging life.
We had this recently with a relative who didn’t have an advance directive, and didn’t give anyone a medical power of attorney. Hospital was forced to take ridiculous steps, like intubating a 90 year old man when there was no hope of his ever waking up or leaving the hospital.
As to changing a chart, any medical professional who does that would lose their license. The hospital would be subject to severe sanctions, or be closed down. You really think they’re going to do that? Honestly, no one cares enough about your grandparents to risk their livelihood and future. |
This. People have the right to request no intervention. The hospital is REQUIRED BY LAW to respect that.
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amother
White
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Sun, May 13 2018, 9:52 am
| Iymnok wrote: | It’s not kindness.
It’s a halachic shaila. There are times it must be done, and times not. It’s not that simple and never is. |
No, it really is that simple. If there’s a directive, it must be followed.
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southernbubby
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Sun, May 13 2018, 9:53 am
| amother wrote: | Its not there unless someone with power said it should be. Most likely your grandparents themselves in a advance directive. Or your parents.
Its not mass murder. Its kindness. Its kindness to allow a person to die in his or her time. Its kindness not to prolong suffering. Its kindness not to prolong death. Which is very different from prolonging life.
We had this recently with a relative who didn’t have an advance directive, and didn’t give anyone a medical power of attorney. Hospital was forced to take ridiculous steps, like intubating a 90 year old man when there was no hope of his ever waking up or leaving the hospital.
As to changing a chart, any medical professional who does that would lose their license. The hospital would be subject to severe sanctions, or be closed down. You really think they’re going to do that? Honestly, no one cares enough about your grandparents to risk their livelihood and future. |
People should talk to a rav as well as finding out just what advanced directive or comfort care really means. The rav may say that it is not necessary to intubate a dying person but it may be necessary to give nutrition by ways other than by mouth or give oxygen and these should not be withheld. No one should die of starvation, dehydration, or suffocation as well as it is routine today to give common medications and blood transfusions and none of this should be withheld. There are halachic parameters about what cannot be withheld.
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lavenderchimes
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Sun, May 13 2018, 9:58 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | People should talk to a rav as well as finding out just what advanced directive or comfort care really means. The rav may say that it is not necessary to intubate a dying person but it may be necessary to give nutrition by ways other than by mouth or give oxygen and these should not be withheld. No one should die of starvation, dehydration, or suffocation as well as it is routine today to give common medications and blood transfusions and none of this should be withheld. There are halachic parameters about what cannot be withheld. |
So true! But, just to be clear, that's not the hospitals job. The hospitals job is to follow the patient's (or their health care proxy, etc.) directive - -they will getting BIG trouble if they don't. If that means withholding food, water, etc, -- once a person can't eat or drink, if they said they don't want a feeding tube, the hospital CAN'T give one. Nor can they all a Rav to intervene -- they would be in big trouble, again. It's up to the patient and their family to tell the hospital what to do, and to consult a Rav.
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lavenderchimes
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:03 am
Here is a statement from the hospital spokeswoman: "For the safety and privacy of our patients, we have limited outside volunteers, vendors, delivery people and other non-visitors and staff from going directly onto patient floors, and into patient rooms. If any family cannot visit the Bikur Cholim room, our volunteers deliver food directly to them consistent with their medical condition."
"Most of the community and outside organizations understand and agree with this policy, but a few volunteers want unsupervised access to patient floors and rooms and have tried to distort the truth."
As some have stated above, it isn't so unreasonable to NOT let random people go into random patient rooms. They literally just walk on the floor and look for Jewish names, and walk into people's rooms. I can imagine that a LOT of non-Orthodox Jews don't like that. It's a shame, because many Jews would appreciate it, but the hospital also Neds to look out for safety and confidentiality. The hospital is NOT taking away the amazing food or Biker Cholim rooms.
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southernbubby
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:06 am
| lavenderchimes wrote: | | So true! But, just to be clear, that's not the hospitals job. The hospitals job is to follow the patient's (or their health care proxy, etc.) directive - -they will getting BIG trouble if they don't. If that means withholding food, water, etc, -- once a person can't eat or drink, if they said they don't want a feeding tube, the hospital CAN'T give one. Nor can they all a Rav to intervene -- they would be in big trouble, again. It's up to the patient and their family to tell the hospital what to do, and to consult a Rav. |
Families have to have a frank discussion with each other about what to do if anyone would be in that condition and put it in their will. Our will states which rabbonim should be consulted so that the family would give the doctors or hospitals the halachically correct directive.
The hospital does have to follow the wishes of the patient, even if they are at odds with what the family wants or believes.
We hope that the US would not follow the example of Great Britain who would not allow the parents to seek help elsewhere and they would be forced to let him die. The UK took away all choice from the family of Alfie Evans. They cloaked it as in the best interests of the child but the parent's religious or other belief was that they should try everything possible to save their baby's life.
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SixOfWands
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:20 am
| lavenderchimes wrote: | Here is a statement from the hospital spokeswoman: "For the safety and privacy of our patients, we have limited outside volunteers, vendors, delivery people and other non-visitors and staff from going directly onto patient floors, and into patient rooms. If any family cannot visit the Bikur Cholim room, our volunteers deliver food directly to them consistent with their medical condition."
"Most of the community and outside organizations understand and agree with this policy, but a few volunteers want unsupervised access to patient floors and rooms and have tried to distort the truth."
As some have stated above, it isn't so unreasonable to NOT let random people go into random patient rooms. They literally just walk on the floor and look for Jewish names, and walk into people's rooms. I can imagine that a LOT of non-Orthodox Jews don't like that. It's a shame, because many Jews would appreciate it, but the hospital also Neds to look out for safety and confidentiality. The hospital is NOT taking away the amazing food or Biker Cholim rooms. |
Right.
Not at NYU, but another hospital, bikur cholim just came in because of my husband’s Jewish name. It wasn’t appreciated.
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Maya
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:29 am
| lavenderchimes wrote: | Here is a statement from the hospital spokeswoman: "For the safety and privacy of our patients, we have limited outside volunteers, vendors, delivery people and other non-visitors and staff from going directly onto patient floors, and into patient rooms. If any family cannot visit the Bikur Cholim room, our volunteers deliver food directly to them consistent with their medical condition."
"Most of the community and outside organizations understand and agree with this policy, but a few volunteers want unsupervised access to patient floors and rooms and have tried to distort the truth."
As some have stated above, it isn't so unreasonable to NOT let random people go into random patient rooms. They literally just walk on the floor and look for Jewish names, and walk into people's rooms. I can imagine that a LOT of non-Orthodox Jews don't like that. It's a shame, because many Jews would appreciate it, but the hospital also Neds to look out for safety and confidentiality. The hospital is NOT taking away the amazing food or Biker Cholim rooms. |
This.
Knowing the nature of the organization, and it’s eagerness to portray themselves as the saviors of those patients, it’s not difficult for me to imagine that some volunteers have overstepped boundaries and privacy concerns in a way that has led the hospital to make this decision. I’d also imagine it was a small number of volunteers, not the organization as a whole, and I feel fairly certain that the hospital administration has tried to work that out before implementing this current policy. No one wants such negative PR, especially with an organization held in such high esteem.
It’s unfortunate, but the food is still available and that’s ultimately what matters.
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amother
Bronze
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:29 am
| lavenderchimes wrote: | Here is a statement from the hospital spokeswoman: "For the safety and privacy of our patients, we have limited outside volunteers, vendors, delivery people and other non-visitors and staff from going directly onto patient floors, and into patient rooms. If any family cannot visit the Bikur Cholim room, our volunteers deliver food directly to them consistent with their medical condition."
"Most of the community and outside organizations understand and agree with this policy, but a few volunteers want unsupervised access to patient floors and rooms and have tried to distort the truth."
As some have stated above, it isn't so unreasonable to NOT let random people go into random patient rooms. They literally just walk on the floor and look for Jewish names, and walk into people's rooms. I can imagine that a LOT of non-Orthodox Jews don't like that. It's a shame, because many Jews would appreciate it, but the hospital also Neds to look out for safety and confidentiality. The hospital is NOT taking away the amazing food or Biker Cholim rooms. |
Bikur Cholim ONLY sends food to families that have REQUESTED FOOD. Bikur Cholim does NOT look for Jewish names and just barge in...for your information.
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SixOfWands
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:42 am
| amother wrote: | | Bikur Cholim ONLY sends food to families that have REQUESTED FOOD. Bikur Cholim does NOT look for Jewish names and just barge in...for your information. |
Except they did with my husband. Not with food, but they did just come into his room. When he’s in the hospital, he doesn’t like family visiting. Strangers really upset him.
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southernbubby
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:42 am
| amother wrote: | | Bikur Cholim ONLY sends food to families that have REQUESTED FOOD. Bikur Cholim does NOT look for Jewish names and just barge in...for your information. |
Playing devil's advocate here but could it be that a roommate of someone who requested food didn't want the fact that he or she was in the hospital known, but that info was divulged to someone and then that person whose illness was made public, complained to NYU?
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amother
cornflower
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:44 am
| amother wrote: | Its not there unless someone with power said it should be. Most likely your grandparents themselves in a advance directive. Or your parents.
Its not mass murder. Its kindness. Its kindness to allow a person to die in his or her time. Its kindness not to prolong suffering. Its kindness not to prolong death. Which is very different from prolonging life.
We had this recently with a relative who didn’t have an advance directive, and didn’t give anyone a medical power of attorney. Hospital was forced to take ridiculous steps, like intubating a 90 year old man when there was no hope of his ever waking up or leaving the hospital.
As to changing a chart, any medical professional who does that would lose their license. The hospital would be subject to severe sanctions, or be closed down. You really think they’re going to do that? Honestly, no one cares enough about your grandparents to risk their livelihood and future. |
Long time poster here:
They changed my chart to hide my late husband's abuse. Don't ever think it doesn't happen.
My late husband stabbed me. The records were made to disappear. My insurance company was never charged.
During court proceedings, the hospital denied it happened. BH I had the discharge instructions for a stab wound. I was asked how I got the proof. The hospital was well aware of the fact the records disappeared. It was done at a high level.
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amother
Blush
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:45 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | Playing devil's advocate here but could it be that a roommate of someone who requested food didn't want the fact that he or she was in the hospital known, but that info was divulged to someone and then that person whose illness was made public, complained to NYU? |
They would never do such a thing.
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southernbubby
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:46 am
| Maya wrote: | This.
Knowing the nature of the organization, and it’s eagerness to portray themselves as the saviors of those patients, it’s not difficult for me to imagine that some volunteers have overstepped boundaries and privacy concerns in a way that has led the hospital to make this decision. I’d also imagine it was a small number of volunteers, not the organization as a whole, and I feel fairly certain that the hospital administration has tried to work that out before implementing this current policy. No one wants such negative PR, especially with an organization held in such high esteem.
It’s unfortunate, but the food is still available and that’s ultimately what matters. |
What would happen, if a bubby who volunteered, had a grandchild in shidduchim and found that the name that the family had been looking into, was a patient in a hospital? Could things like this happen or have they happened? Could scenarios like this affect this decision if there were complaints or would people have complained to the hospital about this type of privacy breech?
I personally found that a grandchild who was hospitalized for RSV infection benefited from what she called "the hospital bubby".
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southernbubby
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:48 am
| amother wrote: | | They would never do such a thing. |
You would certainly hope not and I would imagine that they had very high standards of discretion.
Is the hospital reacting to the possibility of breaches of privacy that never occurred or did something possibly occur or was there an actual complaint?
Last edited by southernbubby on Sun, May 13 2018, 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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kenz
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:49 am
| amother wrote: | | Bikur Cholim ONLY sends food to families that have REQUESTED FOOD. Bikur Cholim does NOT look for Jewish names and just barge in...for your information. |
I spent some time in NYU earlier this year and I absolutely had women wander in to the room I was in and offer me sandwiches with a sticker on them saying who it was a zechus for, and I had never requested these sandwiches. It may not have been Satmar Bikur Cholim but it was a frum lady doing the same thing. How do you expect the hospital to differentiate who is who? My husband also had a frum lady approach him and tell him she’d been barred from entering rooms and could he possibly help her be allowed in. We learned that she had been disruptive in the NICU.
I agree Bikur Cholim does wonderful things and I also agree that the hospital is well within its rights to limit them and all volunteers.
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amother
Blush
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Sun, May 13 2018, 10:54 am
| amother wrote: | Its not there unless someone with power said it should be. Most likely your grandparents themselves in a advance directive. Or your parents.
Its not mass murder. Its kindness. Its kindness to allow a person to die in his or her time. Its kindness not to prolong suffering. Its kindness not to prolong death. Which is very different from prolonging life.
We had this recently with a relative who didn’t have an advance directive, and didn’t give anyone a medical power of attorney. Hospital was forced to take ridiculous steps, like intubating a 90 year old man when there was no hope of his ever waking up or leaving the hospital.
As to changing a chart, any medical professional who does that would lose their license. The hospital would be subject to severe sanctions, or be closed down. You really think they’re going to do that? Honestly, no one cares enough about your grandparents to risk their livelihood and future. |
You wish! They do this all the time.
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SixOfWands
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Sun, May 13 2018, 11:09 am
| amother wrote: | | You wish! They do this all the time. |
Please provide evidence that hospitals frequently or routinely issue DNR orders without the permission of patients.
I would accept peer reviewed articles or evidence of, say, more than 100 claims against a hospital in a 6 month period.
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Maya
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Sun, May 13 2018, 11:18 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | Playing devil's advocate here but could it be that a roommate of someone who requested food didn't want the fact that he or she was in the hospital known, but that info was divulged to someone and then that person whose illness was made public, complained to NYU? |
One of the pitfalls of being part of a close knit community is that the potential for gossip is greater. This is also an issue with other types of gemachim and organizations for the sick, etc. People are not careful about whose information they divulge to others, and things get out.
If someone applies to get help from an organization, they are putting themselves into that situation with the knowledge that information may leak. If a hospital volunteer comes into a room without express permission, they now have information that the patient would likely want to keep private and they are infringing on that. We want to believe that all volunteers have only altruistic motives, but we know that’s not the case. So this precaution may be very necessary.
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