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Mayflower









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 9:48 am
So I understand Israel can't just have thousands of men rushing the fence, but why didn't the IDF use a water cannon or another non-lethal method to get everyone away from the border? Not judging, genuinely trying to understand...
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 9:49 am
They shot into the air to disperse them. What would you have wanted them to do in place of that?
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 9:55 am
Not to go conspiracy but were all the bullets coming from Israel?
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Mayflower









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 9:56 am
The 50 dead weren't killed by bullets into the air...

Why didn't they disperse them with a water cannon? Seems to me it would have been an effective and humane way to wipe the border clean.
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rgr









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 9:59 am
I know they have been using tear gas dropped by drones. If bullets were used they were surely necessary. Israel is not using bullets if they can help it
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DrMom









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 10:14 am
Rioters have used firebombs, flaming tires, and improvised explosive devices on kites to attack Israeli forces. Terrorists have also attempted to attack Israeli forces using firearms and roadside bombs.

These are violent rioters, not peaceful demonstrators.

If force is necessary, I have no problem with the IDF using it.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 10:36 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
They shot into the air to disperse them. What would you have wanted them to do in place of that?


Live ammunition has a nasty habit of coming down and injuring people. Forgetting Gaza, here's an article on a beautiful little girl killed by celebratory gunfire. http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne.....story.html But they also fired into the crowd of protesters. Was it necessary? I don't know. But people died.

I'm saddened by what's going on.

I'm saddened because any loss of life is sad, no matter who caused it. An 8 month old baby died from tear gas inhalation. You want to blame her parents? Sure, they're at fault. But its still tragic.

I'm saddened because its increased anti-Israeli sentiment.

I'm saddened because that's where DS1's good friend is stationed.

I hope in the long run its worth it. Because today, I'm not seeing it.
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rgr









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 10:44 am
Acc to Jewish breaking news some of the"peaceful protesters" who were killed were actually Hamas operatives

https://www.instagram.com/p/BizQ35EHzT1/
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etky









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 10:59 am
Mayflower wrote:
So I understand Israel can't just have thousands of men rushing the fence, but why didn't the IDF use a water cannon or another non-lethal method to get everyone away from the border? Not judging, genuinely trying to understand...


They had the water canon - the 'super tanker' that was specially bought down from the North as a response to the rioting - at ready and did not use it.
I imagine there was a very, very good reason that they did not use it that you and I are not privy to. Other non-lethal methods were in fact employed.
The worst possible scenario that anyone could imagine - for moral and pragmatic reasons- and that no one (other than Hamas, of course) desired was a massive loss of life.
I am sure that the tactical and strategic decisions made by the defense personnel on the ground and the political echelons were guided by the desire to avoid bloodshed to the extent that this was possible.
I don't see how anyone who is not privy to the operational facts and considerations that informed yesterday's events can possibly answer your question.
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DrMom









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 1:40 pm
Also, be smart when you watch CNN, MSNBC etc.

Hamas has a very consistent track record of orchestrating violence to goad the IDF into defensive maneuvers which the willing media then turns into "Israel the mean aggressor" narratives.
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Fox









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 1:49 pm
What should be most sobering to all of us is the degree to which latent anti-Semitism permeates the mainstream media -- particularly among Jewish reporters and news executives.

Virtually every large news organization has spent the last 24 hours acting as a Hamas PR firm, eagerly hitting each and every one of the boxes described by Natan Sharansky as the "3D test" blurring fair criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism.

I was on the road for about 2 1/2 hours yesterday, tuned into NPR. Though I occasionally get annoyed by the liberal bias of their programming and news, neither have I ever cared for the "National Palestinian Radio" demonization. Well, they were apparently determined to prove me naive. Their coverage was so ridiculously one-sided and journalistically incompetent that I finally had to turn to an "oldies station" -- which would have been okay, except that "oldies" no longer means Buddy Holly and the Beach Boys. "Oldies" now means Duran Duran and Blondie. I mean, really!

But I digress. When I actually got home and checked other MSM sources, I realized that my friends at NPR were actually pretty fair by comparison.

So here are some things to consider:

* We know that there are no similar "protests" occurring in the West Bank. That means that Iran is paying for this little exercise.

* We know an event has occurred in the Middle East recently that is of far more historical import than moving the U.S. embassy: Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, both powerful members of the GCC and enemies of Iran and Turkey, have affirmed the right of Israel to exist and secure its borders.

* We know that Egypt has long blocked its border with Gaza because of the terror risk from Hamas.

* We actually don't know how many people have been killed or wounded. Hamas routinely lies about these numbers and stages videos. Military-type people on Twitter have been pointing out that satellite surveillance of hospitals in Gaza are not showing activity commensurate with the casualties being reported.

* We don't actually know how the IDF responded, because none of the information about casualties is coming from the IDF -- it's coming from Hamas.

But here's the most important thing we know:

There have been virtually no MSM reports that even mention any of these circumstances, complications, or possible angles. There have been virtually no MSM reports that even ask questions about these parts of the story. Maybe I'm just bad at using search engines, or maybe the narrative has become more nuanced in the last hour or two.

But the willingness of the vast majority of journalists and news organizations; quite a few political leaders; and far too many opinion influencers to happily jump on what is arguably an anti-Semitic bandwagon on the basis of little to no evidence makes me far more nervous than whatever neo-Nazis are up to. And the fact that so many Jews refuse to call them out on it is even more disturbing.

(Cross-posted with DrMom)
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Shoshie









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 2:06 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I'm saddened because any loss of life is sad, no matter who caused it. An 8 month old baby died from tear gas inhalation. You want to blame her parents? Sure, they're at fault. But its still tragic.




Even a health official in Gaza is saying the child had a pre-existing condition and was not killed by tear gas.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/.....-tear-gas/


edited to correct a misspelled word


Last edited by Shoshie on Wed, May 16 2018, 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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esuss









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 2:35 pm
As per news reports that I read the Palestinians were seen planting bombs near the fence and using live bullets at the IDF.
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ora_43









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 3:06 pm
The IDF did use non-lethal measures. But also lethal ones.

I don't know why, because I wasn't there. I completely understand the IDF opening fire when shots are fired in their direction. I don't know what goes into the calculations of deciding when to fire in other situations (eta: there are a variety of levels of violence in the "protest," from people standing and yelling, to people firing on soldiers, trying to break through the border fence, or starting fires on the Israeli side of the border).

I think part of the dispute over this is the question of who is involved, and what the motives are.

If someone sees it as a bunch of Palestinian civilians coming out to express their political views, then of course they'll think, "gosh, why did it have to turn violent? Even if they were being stupid and rushing the fence, just do something to deter them, you don't have to shoot them."

Netanyahu doesn't see it that way. I mean, not that I've talked to the man personally, but I think it's clear.

To him, probably to top Israeli military leaders as well, this is Iran flexing its muscles on the Israeli border. And the natural response, the only possible response, is to make it absolutely clear that it isn't going to work. Which means violence, because violence is the only thing Hamas/Iran respond to.

I don't know who is right. Historically speaking, Netanyahu and the IDF have a lot more experience protecting the borders than I do. But they might be wrong. Maybe there was a way to do this with fewer deaths; maybe that would have been a better idea.

Either way, Hamas is utterly hypocritical for complaining. As if, when Israeli soldiers enter Gaza, they don't attack them immediately, before they even cross the border, with the goal of killing as many people as possible. But when Hamas soldiers try to cross the border into Israel, suddenly shooting them is a human rights violation?
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etky









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 3:49 pm
ora_43 wrote:
The IDF did use non-lethal measures. But also lethal ones.

I don't know why, because I wasn't there. I completely understand the IDF opening fire when shots are fired in their direction. I don't know what goes into the calculations of deciding when to fire in other situations (eta: there are a variety of levels of violence in the "protest," from people standing and yelling, to people firing on soldiers, trying to break through the border fence, or starting fires on the Israeli side of the border).

I think part of the dispute over this is the question of who is involved, and what the motives are.

If someone sees it as a bunch of Palestinian civilians coming out to express their political views, then of course they'll think, "gosh, why did it have to turn violent? Even if they were being stupid and rushing the fence, just do something to deter them, you don't have to shoot them."

Netanyahu doesn't see it that way. I mean, not that I've talked to the man personally, but I think it's clear.

To him, probably to top Israeli military leaders as well, this is Iran flexing its muscles on the Israeli border. And the natural response, the only possible response, is to make it absolutely clear that it isn't going to work. Which means violence, because violence is the only thing Hamas/Iran respond to.

I don't know who is right. Historically speaking, Netanyahu and the IDF have a lot more experience protecting the borders than I do. But they might be wrong. Maybe there was a way to do this with fewer deaths; maybe that would have been a better idea.

Either way, Hamas is utterly hypocritical for complaining. As if, when Israeli soldiers enter Gaza, they don't attack them immediately, before they even cross the border, with the goal of killing as many people as possible. But when Hamas soldiers try to cross the border into Israel, suddenly shooting them is a human rights violation?
[b]

Yeah, peaceful Palestinian civilians who came out to 'express their political views' - with the added incentive of monetary compensation for those who managed to get themselves injured or killed (in which case the family benefits).
I'm sorry, but at some point you just have to say דמם בראשם
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southernbubby









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 4:40 pm
I can now breathe a sigh of relief because my son, who is a Chabad rabbi, was at the border with the IDF and his car broke down there but he is now back home. Basically the car hit a rock that had been thrown onto the road and it ruptured the oil tank of his car. It took a very long time for a tow truck to arrive.

I got this email about the stupidity of the criticism of Israel in the Gaza:

http://www.rationalistjudaism......ms-of.html
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ora_43









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 4:42 pm
Mayflower wrote:
The 50 dead weren't killed by bullets into the air...

Why didn't they disperse them with a water cannon? Seems to me it would have been an effective and humane way to wipe the border clean.

A water cannon is too short-range. Soldiers would have to be about a meter from the border fence, and out in the open, which would make them very vulnerable to attack.
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shiaeisen









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 4:45 pm
Mayflower wrote:
So I understand Israel can't just have thousands of men rushing the fence, but why didn't the IDF use a water cannon or another non-lethal method to get everyone away from the border? Not judging, genuinely trying to understand...


Because the terrorists, and they’re terrorists not protesters, were warned not to rush the border, tens of thousands tried to infiltrate, they are armed (contrary to fake news reporting) , they throw firebombs, are laying explosives at the border, and throwing fire filled kites....so many can’t be controlled with non lethal methods, which the IDF tries first....
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 7:32 pm
Shoshie wrote:
Even a health official is Gaza is saying the child had a pre-existing condition and was not killed by tear gas.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/.....-tear-gas/


Leaving all that aside, I'm thinking of all the people saying why guns and not tear gas, water cannons, etc. Well, would a bullet have been better?
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Orchid









  


Post  Tue, May 15 2018, 9:43 pm
Copying from something I saw online:

[quote=]Hen Mazzig

4 hrs


I’ve read several articles from diaspora Jews condemning Israel today, so just to make it easy on you, here is what they’re all saying:

As a Jew who lives outside of Israel, it is heartbreaking to hear that 60 people were killed in Gaza today. Even if a large number of them are terrorists, even if they threw molotov cocktails, explosive devices, and shot at the soldiers guarding the border with Israel. Even if they sent bomb kites and waved Nazi flags with swastikas on them. Even if the leaders of Hamas called Palestinians to storm the border with Israel, saying “tear down the fence and then tear out Israeli hearts”. Even if less than a mile away from the border with Gaza, Israeli families and children were sitting at their homes worried for their lives. Even if it is not the first time we face these violent mobs of tens of thousands of Palestinians, led by blood thirsty Hamas terrorists. It still breaks my heart to see it.

As a Jew I am ashamed of myself today. I understand that I have no military or security experience, but is it the only way to stop tens of thousands of people and terrorists trying to cross a border of a country? I know that if it was in any other country we would have seen many more casualties. I know that my country, for instance, would have carpet bombed the border and killed everyone that would try to break through, but it is Israel that I am ashamed of. Although my country has secure borders and I have nothing to worry about except whether or not Starbucks will have my almond milk latte, I can still judge. I can tell you we should be ashamed of Israel today.

As a Jew, I know that every bullet shot, even if it was targeting Hamas terrorists, was not supposed to be shot. I understand Israel’s need for self-defense, but can’t they just talk and play nicer? Don’t they understand what it does to us? Don’t they know how hard it is to be Jewish and not condemn Israel? We might ruin our reputations and come off as “not liberal enough” in our social circles and then what? We will have to be brave? Why won’t Israelis be brave and let them break through the fence to their cities?

As a Jew I cannot defend the actions of Israel. I cannot do it as my connection to this country is so strong that I have to condemn it publicly from the safety of my home. I have to post it online so people will know I am not like Israel and the Israelis. I have to make sure that other criticism of Israel by the anti-semites of the world is legitimized, because I am a Jew and I say what they say, but I also add the words, “I love Israel” to the end of every statement, so how can I be accused of hating Jews? I don’t hate all Jews. I just hate the 7 million in Israel and I want to distance myself from them.

As I write these words, tears roll down my cheeks, I cannot take it anymore. I can’t handle this because I am soft, and I didn’t sign up to be protected by the fact that there is a Jewish state. I need to make it public that this state does not represent me. I condemn it today because it is weak and my contribution is to hit again when Israel is weak, join the mob. And even if this mob will turn against me one day, I hope that Israel won’t remember I was beating her up when she was on the ground and that she will let me in. But until that day, I will hit again.
[/quote]
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