Gaza | Imamother

southernbubby

Wed, May 16 2018, 1:03 pm

daagahminayin wrote:

I know I should be used to this, but I still find it shocking how so many people on the internet who are anti-Israel are not open to hearing any defense or explanation of Israel’s actions (I.e facts) whatsoever.

Yes, I know they might say the same thing about Israel supporters but it’s not true!

Yes, I know we live in a post-modern world where words like “facts” and “truth” are considered so personal and biased they mean nothing. And at times like these it drives me crazy. Who is there to talk to when you can’t have a reasonable conversation with anyone because there is no common ground of what constitutes reality?

That is why I deactivated my Facebook account. People are clearly in one camp or the other and they buy everything in the conservative or liberal play book and can't think for themselves at all. Why can't a person be a liberal and still defend Israel the way that Nikki Haley does? Why can't they say that whatever drivel the liberal trash media spits out does not pertain to them because they are Jews first and foremost?

PinkFridge

Wed, May 16 2018, 1:27 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

You see, this is what angers me.

I responded to someone who said that the right wing said Israel was perfect, while the left wing said the Palestinians were, by saying that BOTH sides did things wrong. Which even the IDF admits.

And you attack me.

You excise where I talk about the faults of the Gazans.

You fail to point to any outrage at the Israelis, which of course doesn't exist. Just sadness. Sadness at people dying. If you cannot be sad that a baby died, then you have lost all humanity, and I pity you as well.

That's the problem with you conservatives. You create straw men in order to attack and vilify others, and really don't care about the fact that you're spouting nothing more than a bunch of lies. But this is personal, and it infuriates me.

At this moment, a boy who practically grew up in my home is fighting on the Gaza border. And 5 or 6 more who regularly sat at my Shabbat table are in the Israeli army, or about to join the Israeli army, but I don't know where they're stationed. My oldest son has repeatedly stated that he'll be joining them in 2 years, and I'm guessing my youngest will follow in a few years. Maybe DD2 as well. I care about Israel.

But you don't give a darn about that. You just care about attacking me.

~~Dog whistle~~ Honk if you're conservative.
Yup. Me too.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 16 2018, 1:30 pm

southernbubby wrote:

And I have a problem with any Jew who considers the Israelis to be occupiers or oppressors and that the Gazans are the oppressed and that big dog Israel is using excessive force on people who have been robbed of their dignity for too long or that they are entitled to their 2 state solution.

This is our land.

We are it's people.

We must defend ourselves even at the expense of innocent civilians.

We must never forget that we are Jews before we are citizens of the world or of any other country and that we have been exiled, annihilated, or treated as second class citizens in most countries in the world.

My son is already at the Gaza and has been every week day for years because that is what he is paid to do on behalf of Chabad. He puts tefillin on chayalim before they go into the danger zone. They seem to welcome his presence and that of the other Chabad rabbonim that are sent there. (They refer to it as Chabad of Aza). He normally feels safe but yesterday his car broke down on some rock strewn road so we were all a bit nervous until help came.

And has there ever been a people in history who ceded their land, and left the land flourishing, with sincere offers to assist the new residents in maintaining this economic success?
I'm sorry that the Gazans chose to destroy what they were given, and chose to oppress their own people, within their borders. Sad.

SixOfWands

Wed, May 16 2018, 1:36 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Of course, I never said that I considered Israel to be occupiers or oppressors. That's nothing but a figment of your imagination.

ora_43

Wed, May 16 2018, 1:59 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

"Many"?

I don't doubt such people existed, and some were injured. But in a crowd of over 30,000 people, with at least 50 of the dead confirmed terrorists, with confirmed shooting attacks, less than 10 people civilians killed is not "many." I'm not saying it isn't a shame if unarmed protesters were killed, but it would be a very reasonable terrorist:civilian death ratio in comparison to what's happened in similar riots elsewhere on earth.

Quote:

But Israel didn't do everything right, either. Even Israel admits that. According to Haaretz, a senior Israeli army spokesman admitted Tuesday that Israel failed to minimize the number of Palestinian casualties, and that some were hit by mistake.

This I agree with.

Quote:

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.

If it wasn't the embassy, it would have been something else. Hamas needs more money and it needs more local support. This has been a few months coming.

Fox

Wed, May 16 2018, 2:47 pm

ora_43 wrote:

If it wasn't the embassy, it would have been something else. Hamas needs more money and it needs more local support. This has been a few months coming.

The people who are pushing this story as a response to the embassy are either woefully naive or simply haven't been following events in the region lately. Or want to jump on any opportunity to blame Israel and the Jews.

Interestingly, there actually have been Palestinian civilians -- 24 in March alone -- killed as a result of Russian/Syrian gunfire and bombardment in Syria. No protests? No journalists making sad faces? No celebrities issuing impassioned tweets?

It's harder every day to ignore the evidence that the world cares about Palestinian deaths only when Jews can be blamed for them.

SixOfWands

Wed, May 16 2018, 3:41 pm

Fox wrote:

its difficult to argue against "anyone who knows anything agrees with me, and those who don't are antisemites."

Maybe I can try.

Anyone who thinks that the events would have unfolded as they did absent the symbolic move of the embassy to Jerusalem is either woefully naive or simply hasn't followed events in the region lately. Or wants to jump on any opportunity to blame those who don't support the move.

Anyone who thinks that moving the embassy to Jerusalem doesn't stand to benefit Israel in any concrete manner, but will both enrage even moderate Palestinians who support a 2-state solution, and also serve as fodder to anti-semites, is woefully naive and just doesn't understand the world.

How'd I do. No response necessary. Anything you say will simply demonstrate how woefully naive you are, and how little you follow events.

SixOfWands

Wed, May 16 2018, 4:41 pm

sushilover wrote:

You might say, in other words, that there were " some fine people on both sides. "

Its hardly an apt comparison.

Trump issued his famous statement by way of defending his slowness to condemn white nationalists and neo-Nazis after the disaster in Virginia, which resulted in the death of one woman. The rally featured people carrying Nazi flags and shouting Nazi slogans. Trump created the very moral equivalence that you decry.

Here, Save the Children claims that 700 children have been injured in the protests. About half were hit with live bullets, according to data collected by the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is also being used by the United Nations in its reporting.

My last comment. I'm signing off for a while. I refuse to be continue to be the subject of these vile and baseless attacks on me.

octopus

Wed, May 16 2018, 4:50 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

And the truth is somewhere in between.

There were plenty of non-violent, non-terrorist protesters, who genuinely believe their political position (and who genuinely believe that Israel is not a partner for peace), and many of them were injured, or even killed.

There were plenty of people armed with guns and knives (neither of which would do much good if they couldn't breach the border) and with grenades and molotov cocktails and other weapons which, while not as sophisticated, can most assuredly do harm.

There were plenty of calls for the destruction of Israel. But those are so common that they're virtually background noise.

But Israel didn't do everything right, either. Even Israel admits that. According to Haaretz, a senior Israeli army spokesman admitted Tuesday that Israel failed to minimize the number of Palestinian casualties, and that some were hit by mistake.

Its a big PR battle, and Israel lost.

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.

These "protests" are planned well in advance. The arabs don't need an excuse to do something, if it wasn't the embassy moving, it would have been something else. And, no, I will not call them Palestinians. It is a misnomer.

Fox

Wed, May 16 2018, 6:01 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

The difference is that I have offered evidence earlier in the thread to support my position: namely,

* U.S. exit from the JCPOA and renewed sanctions;
* The overwhelming proportion of Hamas members among those killed;
* The overwhelming proportion of military-aged men among those killed;
* The killing of 24 high-ranking Hamas officers who would not have been part of the protests;
* The fact that Gaza hospital activity was not commensurate with the casualties reported;
* The fact that both Bahrain and Saudi Arabia said in advance that Israel had the right to secure its borders; and
* The fact that no concurrent protests were held in the West Bank;

The embassy move made for a very neat, photogenic reason for Hamas to call for protests, but it actually changed very little for them. However, other recent events will have actual consequences for Hamas.

* The exit of the U.S. from JCPOA and the fact that EU countries will likely not be entering into new contracts with Iran means that Hamas will lose money.

* The statements by MbS and Sheikh Khalid al-Khalifa regarding Israel represent, to Hamas, a betrayal of gargantuan proportions, particularly when combined with MbS's denunciation of Islamist philosophies.

* Reports that Hezbollah is seeking independence from Iran no doubt worry Hamas officials that their dependence on Iran is a weakness that can be exploited not only by Israel, but now by the GCC.

Would these protests have occurred precisely at the time and in the manner that they did, absent the embassy move? Probably not. Would they have occurred in some related manner? Absolutely.

And if we entertain the hypothesis of a covert ground operation, something that Ali Shihabi of the Arabia Foundation certainly didn't discount in his interview on NPR yesterday, it may be that the embassy move was planned to provoke conflict in order to provide cover for GCC special operations troops.

Now, any of these circumstances can be evaluated independently or in combinations. You could certainly argue, "Well, the conflict at the border was 25 percent the embassy move; 25 percent the JCPOA withdrawal; and 50 percent anger at Bahrain and MbS."

My point, though, is that you'll find none of the MSM asking questions about or examining any of these factors. Are they all such horrible journalists that a fat, middle-aged Jewish lady in Chicago with a computer and a Twitter account can come up with better questions? Are they too lazy or stupid to say, "Huh! That's a funny coincidence. Maybe I should ask some questions about that!"? Or have they simply decided in advance on a Marxist narrative that casts Palestinian Muslims as the oppressed and Israeli Jews as the oppressors?

So if your argument is that the MSM isn't really anti-Semitic, they're just bad journalists and/or stupid and lazy, you may be correct. It's just an odd endorsement of the media's coverage.

Miri7

Wed, May 16 2018, 6:27 pm

Fox wrote:

The plot has thickened quite a bit since yesterday.

As Etky pointed out, Hamas itself has released a list of "martyrs." Fifty of the names on the list are known Hamas operatives, and all but a handful are men of military age. Isn't it amazing that the IDF was somehow able to pick out those individuals from all the non-violent protesters? Or maybe it's not so hard at all when the people storming the border were not "protestors" at all, but rather members of a military group.

However, that's the least of it.

Hamas has also released a more detailed photo composite of 24 high-ranking officers who were among those allegedly killed by the IDF. These were all individuals at the corresponding rank of "colonel" or above, and they would not have been out throwing rocks, burning tires, and tossing Molotov cocktails.

So if these men were really killed, it wasn't part of the conflict at the border. It was quite likely a covert operation conducted well within Gaza. It's possible it was conducted exclusively by the IDF, but it is far more likely that it was done by the GCC.

Either way, it's both a blow and a message to Iran. Not only have two dozen key personnel been taken out, but it's a message that Hamas is vulnerable.

I'm usually not terribly persuaded by conspiracy theories. Well, except about Princess Diana, who was clearly murdered. I mean, it's hard enough to get a group of people to order Chinese food, let alone anything more complex. But the timing of all this is awfully convenient.

As an Iran proxy, Hamas seems to have almost been prodded in the last few weeks to take a stand: first, denunciations by Bahrain and Saudi Arabia; then, the U.S. exit from the JCPOA. Opening the embassy at this particular time was certain to provoke Hamas, which may have been the goal all along. The resulting border conflict provided excellent cover for a covert ground operation that was staged successfully while the everyone's attention was focused elsewhere.

Yes, just this Monday we were watching the news and DH said, “we’ll, I guess they (israel/IDF) will have taken the opportunity to take out a lot of the leadership, as they usually do when things heat up”.