Gaza | Imamother

zohar

Thu, May 17 2018, 7:24 am

I don't think that even people understand the decisions the IDF have to make. I see so much of "why can't they use water cannons and rubber bullets at teargas etc.". Firstly, The anti Israel folks aren't happy with teargas. They are using a dead baby as proof of the evil Israelis murdering babies claiming the baby died by inhaling teargas. In reality a Gazan Dr. said that the child died of a pre-existing heart condition. It seems that the child may have died and Hamas paid good the grandmother to take her to the roots. As for rubber bullets and water cannons. These only work at really close range and with thousands storming the border, if the IDF would let them get that close, that would not be sufficient to control the crowd and the IDF would have to kill a lot more people, basically mow then down to prevent them from reaching Jewish communities. Is become obvious that the IDF were not shooting indiscriminately as Hamas has claimed 50 out of the 60 as their members and Islamic Jihad claimed 3. None were women. All male teens or young adults. This was with their vision obscured by burning tires. And the claim of 3,000+ injured. They'd like you to believe they were shot by military artillery and snipers. The numbers don't make sense only 60 dead out of 3,000 shot? Only an 0.02% kill rate? Also, the Gazan hospitals don't seem to be dealing with a major influx of patients on that scale. Anyway my main point is that the IDF is trying to control the situation from a bit of a distance so they won't have to have a mass casualty operation when the rioters actually breach the border.

DrMom

Thu, May 17 2018, 7:27 am

Mayflower wrote:

I started this thread and then disappeared... Went through the 5 pages, thanks for all your answers.

My main conclusion: Israel lost this PR battle badly Sad

Israel loses *all* PR battles because the mainstream media (and less so in the US than in Europe) are dominated by Leftists who are aligned against Israel.

But Israel cannot let that deter them from defending itself.

Europe will never be satisfied. Hamas has been very open about their murderous intentions, but that is never the headline. Any defensive action on Israel's part is met with condemnation. The only acceptable action to most of the world is for Jews to simply roll over and die.

I don't have high expectations of morality from European nations, or (to a lesser degree) with mainstream US news outlets.

Mayflower

Thu, May 17 2018, 7:40 am

zohar wrote:

A few people mentioned that water cannons only work at close range, but some googling taught me anti-riot cannons can easily have a 65 meter range (see for example . here) and they are specifically designed for riotting crowds, so I don't see why the fact that there were thousands of people would have been a problem. Why wouldn't that be sufficient?

Again, I'm sure the IDF thought of all this and made an informed decision, my question is mainly why aren't they explaining these issues more clearly to the public?

Mayflower

Thu, May 17 2018, 7:44 am

zohar wrote:

What do you think ideal Israel could have done to win the PR battle? This whole thing was a PR operation by Hamas and the MSM went along with it because they wanted to.

See above. I think instead of just stating all men there were terrorists (which might be true but doesn't come over well), they should have shown more clearly why this was their only option and why this outcome was inevitable.

cbsp

Thu, May 17 2018, 7:48 am

Mayflower wrote:

Does this help?

Forgot to add that it came from here :

http://honestreporting.com

It's a great site if you're genuinely curious about the facts of what goes on with reporting about Israel.

Laiya

Thu, May 17 2018, 8:04 am

Mayflower wrote:

They try, but it doesn't get reported in the msm.

Not sure how to post this image, but I think it's very powerful and perfectly explains:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd.....P.jpg

This came from the IDf link which is worth looking at:
https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson
Also, The Israel Project puts out videos, Friends of the IDF, Stand with Us, and others have info.

Worth pointing out that if you look at the conservative sites, you will get a far more balanced, nuanced picture as well.

I think the sad truth, which is painful for us as Jews to accept, is that the world really doesn't care about Jewish lives; except for a small minority, which we must appreciate.

It's always been like this.

zohar

Thu, May 17 2018, 8:07 am

Mayflower wrote:

The IDF is attempting to explain things. Check out their official Twitter account. "Journalists" are deliberately acting as the propaganda won't of Hamas. In the past I would attribute at least some of it to ignorance, but not this time.

zohar

Thu, May 17 2018, 8:21 am

Mayflower wrote:

65 meters is a VERY, VERY short distance. Shorter than my backyard. 213 feet. They cannot let them get that close. You can not control a group of thousands spread out. It's for hundreds tightly packed in a narrow space, like a street.

Mayflower

Thu, May 17 2018, 9:38 am

someone wrote:

Quote:

I started this thread and then disappeared... Went through the 5 pages, thanks for all your answers.

My main conclusion: Israel lost this PR battle badly Sad

My main conclusion in that b"H after two thousand years Jews can protect themselves, and not wait for the world to do it for us or even approve of what we are doing. Jewish blood is no longer hefker.

I know I'm going to get stoned for this, but to me this shmecks of kochi v'otzem yadi. Whether in Israel or not, we are still essentially in golus.

Of course Jewish blood should not be hefker and Israel should defend itself. I do think, however, that this attitude of "we do whatever we want and don't care what the rest of the world thinks" can be very dangerous ch'v.

zohar

Thu, May 17 2018, 9:56 am

Mayflower wrote:

Mayflower, you might not believe this, but I actually fall on the slightly anti tzioni camp hashkafically so I understand your sensitivity to the matter. But if you look closely at "someone's" post, she writes, "B"H..." That's crucial. She isn't saying Kochi v'otzem yadi, because she is stating a reality and acknowledging that it's only because Hashem wills it that this is possible.

PinkFridge

Thu, May 17 2018, 10:34 am

zohar wrote:

If this has legs, it needs to be researched and then covered. Shades of Muhammad al Dura?

Jeanette

Thu, May 17 2018, 10:55 am

Mayflower wrote:

To me the point is that when Israel bends over backwards to accommodate world sensitivities the world isn't satisfied anyway so the result is increased Israeli casualties with no discernable benefit.

This does not mean Israel davka goes out of its way to cause civilian suffering. Given all that was going on, 60 deaths of which 50 are Hamas fighters is not a bad toll at all. But it's a waste of energy trying to convince the world of that fact.

At the same time, whatever is going on in gaza is a humanitarian crisis. Whether it's Israel's fault or what can be done about it are an open question. I can support Israel's right to secure its own border while still acknowledging that keeping a population basically prisoner is not sustainable in the long term.