Are we making too few demands on our children?

Motek

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 11:32 am

shalhevet wrote:

This thread is a spin-off from the mesivtas one, where a side-discussion developed as to whether American-style chinuch more than Israeli-style chinuch results in overprotection of our children that stunts their possible growth?

You haven't used the word independence, so I don't know if that's what you're referring to, vis a vis overprotection. I started a thread on Independence which I'll revive if you want to add to the discussion there.

Quote:

Do you think we are spoiling our children too much?

The answer is probably "yes" in certain areas, but the question is too general for me to respond to.

Quote:

Do you think material plenty can damage our children?

sure

Quote:

Do you think frum Jews are influenced by the outside world in this regard?

Jews are influenced by the outside world in all regards.

Motek

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 6:00 pm

shalhevet wrote:

... whether American-style chinuch more than Israeli-style chinuch ...

No doubt, by "Israeli-style chinuch" you are referring to chareidi-type chinuch which is litvish in orientation. And by American-style chinuch you are referring to ????

There are many types of women on this forum, both in Israel and in the US and so I think you need to be specific. And if you want to compare, then you need to compare like with like, chareidi-litvish-Israeli style chinuch with yeshivish-litvish-American style chinuch (and there are very few representatives of each on the forum, seems to me).

Atali

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 6:09 pm

Well, I think that one difference between, many but not all, US families and those in other countries is the definition of necessities

When I moved to Australia from the US, I was shocked at how many things that I was used to that I had to live without, such as central heating and air-conditioning, many convenience foods, dryers (I eventually bought one but most Australians use clotheslines), living in smaller houses and using more public transportation, etc.

Since I didn't grow up like this, I found it extremely hard to adjust, especially having married someone in kollel who needless to say could not afford all the luxuries that I was used to.

We are IY"H moving back to America where I will have a decent paying job, a larger house with a larger yard, central air, etc (my DH will still be learning half day in working in klei kodesh the other half).

So my question is, how to I avoid spoiling my kids so that they won't end up like me?

amother

Sun, Nov 11 2007, 7:26 pm

Quote:

Do you think we are spoiling our children too much?

I think its the opotsite. people are so hard on thier kdis to make sure they arent spoiled, which makes them unhappy, which makes these mothers call them brats which makes them act like brats.

just like adults have to be treated with respect so do kids. if we treat kids the way we would want to be treated. they wont be spoiled just well adjusted kids. yes sometimes we have to say no, or critisize but it shouls always be dont in a positive loving way just like we want it to be done to us.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 2:46 am

Motek wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

... whether American-style chinuch more than Israeli-style chinuch ...

Concerning the sort of issues about spoiling/ demands etc that I was referring to, I think Litvish and Chassidish chinuch in EY have much more in common than Litvish in EY and Litvish in America. Imaonwheels has written about Chabad chinuch here, and it doesn't sound so different from Litvish here (I'm obviously talking about physical conditions, how much learning, vacations etc and not the content of what is taught).

By American I don't know what I'm referring to and that's what I'm interested in hearing about.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 3:15 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

Do you think we are spoiling our children too much?

I see no connection between your first paragraph and the second (why on earth are you amother??)
Respect and criticism are nothing to do with spoiling. I have seen numerous occasions when a child asked for something in a store. The mother says no, the child asks again, the mother refuses again; all the while the child is more and more whiny and the mother more and more angry. In the end she says something like, 'You always want things and drive me nuts. You don't deserve it anyway because you.... (fill in the blank as she makes fun of her child in public) and I've bought you too many things already. I'm only buying you this to shut you up, but that's it...'
Voila! Spoiling and lack of respect in one fell swoop.... Exploding anger

Atali

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 4:20 am

Quote:

I have seen numerous occasions when a child asked for something in a store. The mother says no, the child asks again, the mother refuses again; all the while the child is more and more whiny and the mother more and more angry. In the end she says something like, 'You always want things and drive me nuts. You don't deserve it anyway because you.... (fill in the blank as she makes fun of her child in public) and I've bought you too many things already. I'm only buying you this to shut you up, but that's it...'
Voila! Spoiling and lack of respect in one fell swoop.... Evil or Very Mad

Maybe I haven't been to as many stores as you, but I have never seen anything like that!

Fox

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 6:23 pm

It's important to remember when comparing life in different countries that there are differences that run deeper than cars versus public transport and dryers versus clotheslines. Many times, it's not just a case of apples versus oranges, but apples versus brisket.

Almost everyone -- yes, including me, sometimes -- likes to criticize life in the U.S. for producing spoiled, self-indulgent people, and I don't think we need to belabor the point with too many examples! But there is another side to the U.S., courtesy of the Puritan founders of the nation: most Americans work relentlessly hard to "better" themselves and their circumstances, however they might define such betterment.

In many cases, we feel pressure to improve our financial standing, but even people with excess cash often embark on physical or spiritual improvement programs or undertake significant educational projects. The concept of sitting around, enjoying the company of neighbors, family, and friends, does not receive very good press in the U.S. Visitors from Europe and the Middle East, especially, always complain that Americans are too busy to enjoy life, and if we aren't busy, we find something to do to become busy.

The positive side of this "busy-ness" is that most of our children understand that time is limited and we must make the most of it. Our constant quest for improvement also helps us see how we can make the world better -- whether through individual chesed, through organizations, or activism in some guise. Philanthropic giving and volunteerism is higher in the U.S. than virtually anywhere in the world.

The negative side, of course, is that many of us *do* feel stressed and pressured to achieve goals that are either undefined or impossible. And our critics are absolutely right that we don't take any time to enjoy our lives.

I remember walking in Queens once several years ago. It was Labor Day, and I was returning from work -- naturally, I scheduled myself to work. I saw some Italian immigrants lounging on folding chairs on the tiny scrap of land in front of their homes. They were listening to Frank Sinatra albums on a boombox and barbequing on a tiny grill. They were so relaxed and happy! I was momentarily envious! Even on Shabbos, there is so much pressure to get everyone to shul, to get the meals served in a timely manner, to make sure we finish in time for a special shiur or for the girls to go to Bnos. I had to admit to myself that I have *never* been as relaxed as those gentlemen in Queens. Of course, their U.S.-born children will probably be just as stressed as the rest of us!

So who is "spoiled"? The person who grows up in a culture with a lot of material conveniences *and* a lot of pressure to perform? Or the person who grows up with fewer material luxuries but with the opportunity to spend more time playing, daydreaming, and building relationships? Perhaps we're all "spoiled" by Hashem, and the only way to respond is with gratitude, mitzvos, and as much chesed as we can do.

amother

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 7:04 pm

Quote:

Respect and criticism are nothing to do with spoiling. I have seen numerous occasions when a child asked for something in a store. The mother says no, the child asks again, the mother refuses again; all the while the child is more and more whiny and the mother more and more angry

exactly and this is my point! kids are people too! if we want something and ask someone and they say NO! we would also feel bad. we want to be understood just like kids do.

this is what I do with my daughter and believe me it works and she isnt "spoiled" (althougfh ppl refer to the term spoiled as a child acting out on thier hurt feelings....)

she says I want that in the store to something, and if I cant get it I dont say NO, I say, I know you want that sweetie but mommy isnt buying that right now. and she says but I want it. and I say I know your really really want it, and its soooo hard when we cant have what we want, but sometimes we cant have what we want..... sometimes ai have a reason and ill tell her like, thats really not good for your teeth, but maybe you can have a little bit on shabbos, because a little bit is ok.

she almost NEVER has a tantrum and bh shes not spoiled at all. its the "im gonna teach this brat to listen" that MAKEs the kids bratty and act "spoiled"

Atali

Mon, Nov 12 2007, 7:59 pm

Quote:

Almost everyone -- yes, including me, sometimes -- likes to criticize life in the U.S. for producing spoiled, self-indulgent people, and I don't think we need to belabor the point with too many examples! But there is another side to the U.S., courtesy of the Puritan founders of the nation: most Americans work relentlessly hard to "better" themselves and their circumstances, however they might define such betterment.

Yes and no. Your right that Americans as a general rule do have a desire to get ahead, but that doesn't necessarily make for a stronger work ethic. Many American I know (I am leaving frum people out of the equation for a moment) do not have a strong work ethic and satisfy their desire to get ahead, by cheating in school (I read somewhere that like 70% of US public school students cheat in a given year, or for adults, by getting themselves into tremendous amount of credit card debt in order to appear rich).

In Australia, although people do not work as long hours and take more vacations than Americans, they tend to use less shortcuts (like disposable dishes and dryers, not that I mind them of course) and as far as school is concerned, study much harder.

I myself will admit that growing up in America (this doesn't apply in the same way to NY) has made me more used to conveniences than I should be.

Motek

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 1:58 pm

shalhevet wrote:

oncerning the sort of issues about spoiling/ demands etc that I was referring to, I think Litvish and Chassidish chinuch in EY have much more in common than Litvish in EY and Litvish in America.

I think you'd be (pleasantly) surprised to learn that serious yeshiva-leit (as opposed to those who are just following the yeshivishe fads) in the US, where the husband is learning longterm or is in chinuch or ascribes to those values and works, have the same values and lifestyle as yourself. I know many people who live simply and whose highest values are Torah study, improvement of middos, and avodas Hashem.