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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 8:05 am
https://forward.com/news/natio.....day-Friday

It looks as if the frum community has gotten better at handling clergy who are zex offenders than the non-frum. No one should think that it is only the frum community with this problem.
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DrMom









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 8:07 am
southernbubby wrote:
It looks as if the frum community has gotten better at handling clergy who are zex offenders than the non-frum. No one should think that it is only the frum community with this problem.

I agree with your second sentence, but not your first one.
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zaq









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 8:21 am
DrMom wrote:
I agree with your second sentence, but not your first one.

Same here. The article reported on Reform offenders only. That it was silent on the Orthodox movement’s response (or lack thereof) to allegations of s@xual offenses means only that the article was narrow in scope, not that Orthodoxy was excluded because it’s doing such a fine job.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 8:26 am
They did say that one Orthodox rabbinic organization took a stronger stand against this type of immorality than the Reform umbrella organization.
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zaq









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 9:00 am
southernbubby wrote:
They did say that one Orthodox rabbinic organization took a stronger stand against this type of immorality than the Reform umbrella organization.


But what does “taking a stronger stand” mean? Publishing articles condemning s@xual harassment? Providing speakers delivering the same message? That’s lip service, not a stand.

More meaningful would be genuine action: encouraging reporting, not covering up. Rejecting the idea of rabbinic infallibility. Demolishing the attitude that men are led by their yetzer hara and therefore not truly responsible for their actions. Exploding the habit of shaming and blaming the victim. Short/circuiting the knee-jerk response of giving mass tznius lectures after every disaster, which reinforces the attitude that women are at fault. Taking genuine action against offenders, from stripping them of their titles to putting them in cherem.

There is still more concern for the dignity and reputation of the offender than the pain and humiliation of the victim.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 9:17 am
zaq wrote:
But what does “taking a stronger stand” mean? Publishing articles condemning s@xual harassment? Providing speakers delivering the same message? That’s lip service, not a stand.

More meaningful would be genuine action: encouraging reporting, not covering up. Rejecting the idea of rabbinic infallibility. Demolishing the attitude that men are led by their yetzer hara and therefore not truly responsible for their actions. Exploding the habit of shaming and blaming the victim. Short/circuiting the knee-jerk response of giving mass tznius lectures after every disaster, which reinforces the attitude that women are at fault. Taking genuine action against offenders, from stripping them of their titles to putting them in cherem.

There is still more concern for the dignity and reputation of the offender than the pain and humiliation of the victim.


While all of that is true, I personally know of a few accused or even admitted offenders whose life the way they knew it was irreversibly changed for the worse. They did not walk Scot free as though it was the victim's fault. They were forced to divorce, lose custody, or live a life as a fugitive or all of the above. Some have gone to jail, even if there were people in the frum community who believed that they were innocent.

And it is possible that sometimes the charges are false or they are decades old and can't be reliably proven and it still sullies the reputation of the person and they may lose everything that they have from a false accusation.
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zaq









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 3:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I personally know of a few accused or even admitted offenders whose life the way they knew it was irreversibly changed for the worse. They did not walk Scot free as though it was the victim's fault. They were forced to divorce, lose custody, or live a life as a fugitive or all of the above. Some have gone to jail, even if there were people in the frum community who believed that they were innocent.

.


And so? Why does compassion overflow for CONFESSED predators? If a crime is committed, the victim ‘s life changes irrevocably for the worse. Should the perpetrator not suffer the consequences of hos crime? If the crime is jail-worthy, should the perp not serve time because he’s frum?

Many victims of s-xual abuse end up divorced—or never marry and have children, or do marry and have dysfunctional marriages-— either because the psychological damage makes it impossible for them to have a normal marriage, or because their spouses can’t handle the fallout. And they and their families also have to deal with gossip, shunning, shame, blame and damage to their reputations, not to mention sexually transmitted diseases and other physical harm. Why should a predator not lose his wife and children? Would you care to stay married to a s-xual predator?

That people in the frum community believe someone to be innocent does not make it so. Every convicted predator has friends, neighbors or family prepared to affirm his or her sainthood. .

Do innocent people get accused? Yes. Do tlhey sometimes get convicted? Yes. This does not mean that we should fail to report incidents, disregard those who speak out, fail to investigate complaints, and in short allow harassment and abuse to continue without doing anything about it.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 3:12 pm
zaq wrote:
And so? Why does compassion overflow for CONFESSED predators? If a crime is committed, the victim ‘s life changes irrevocably for the worse. Should the perpetrator not suffer the consequences of hos crime? If the crime is jail-worthy, should the perp not serve time because he’s frum?

Many victims of s-xual abuse end up divorced—or never marry and have children, or do marry and have dysfunctional marriages-— either because the psychological damage makes it impossible for them to have a normal marriage, or because their spouses can’t handle the fallout. And they and their families also have to deal with gossip, shunning, shame, blame and damage to their reputations, not to mention sexually transmitted diseases and other physical harm. Why should a predator not lose his wife and children? Would you care to stay married to a s-xual predator?

That people in the frum community believe someone to be innocent does not make it so. Every convicted predator has friends, neighbors or family prepared to affirm his or her sainthood. .

Do innocent people get accused? Yes. Do tlhey sometimes get convicted? Yes. This does not mean that we should fail to report incidents, disregard those who speak out, fail to investigate complaints, and in short allow harassment and abuse to continue without doing anything about it.


All of what you are saying is true but although in the past, these predators walked away Scot free, they usually don't anymore. Most rabbonim favor reporting them to the police rather than what was done in the past by having rabbonim simply talk to them or send them to another community to harm someone else.

Yes the predator, his family, and his victims all pay a price for his behavior but I do think that the frum community has become more aware and more willing to prosecute.
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imasoftov









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:06 pm
southernbubby wrote:
They did say that one Orthodox rabbinic organization took a stronger stand against this type of immorality than the Reform umbrella organization.

If there was only one Orthodox rabbinic organization, or all of them adopted this policy (and all Orthodox rabbis belonged to one of those, there might be some who don't belong to any), your impression that "the frum community has gotten better ..." would be supported by this article.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Thu, May 17 2018, 8:37 am
imasoftov wrote:
If there was only one Orthodox rabbinic organization, or all of them adopted this policy (and all Orthodox rabbis belonged to one of those, there might be some who don't belong to any), your impression that "the frum community has gotten better ..." would be supported by this article.



I guess that it is like 3 blind men and an elephant and each man thinks that the elephant is like the part of it that they can touch so the one who touches the tail thinks that the elephant is like a snake and so forth.

I have seen a lot of improvements in the Chabad community as far as being willing to take action against predators and as far as educating the public about those situations.
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imasoftov









  


Post  Mon, May 21 2018, 3:09 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I guess that it is like 3 blind men and an elephant and each man thinks that the elephant is like the part of it that they can touch so the one who touches the tail thinks that the elephant is like a snake and so forth.

I have seen a lot of improvements in the Chabad community as far as being willing to take action against predators and as far as educating the public about those situations.

Why don't you tell us about those improvements?
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ILOVELIFE









  


Post  Tue, May 22 2018, 1:41 am
I personally know of quite a few Rabbonim in Boro Park and Flatbush who have quietly made a strong case & plea with some
Vicims to report and they will help them
Along the way
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imasoftov









  


Post  Wed, May 23 2018, 4:56 am
imasoftov wrote:
Why don't you tell us about those improvements?

In response to the hug, here are more questions.

Are the improvements in Chabad local to where southernbubby lives, or are they being implemented on a movement-wide level? Is there a policy that one can read? How are abusers prevented from finding a new job in another community (either geographically or a different movement)?

The same questions could also be asked about the RCA and CCAR and any other group, frum or not.

I'd also still like to know what percentage of frum institutions are affiliated with Chabad or the RCA and what percentage of Reform institutions with the CCAR. Note that the answer to that may not be identical to what percentage of Orthodox Jews are either Chabad or MO. I know that not all MO institutions are affiliated with the RCA, and while I don't know how it works in Chabad, could there be one or both of unaffiliated institutions (e.g. the sign says Chabad House but it's not part of any larger organization) or possibly more than one global organization, one for Messianic Chabad and one for non-?
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