Ties on boys please explain

amother

Ecru

Sun, May 27 2018, 5:50 pm

Dh and I grew up chassidish, so he never wears a tie, so neither do our sons. We are not really chassidish now, our boys go to a local yeshiva, daven in a hamish shul.
My bar mitzvah aged son was asked a few times by the principal why he is not wearing a tie on shabbos or to classmate's bar mitzvahs.
Ds said his father doesn't wear one.
Anyhow, dh met the principal who insisted ds must wear a tie, because boys who wear suits with no ties end up being rebels.
Please can someone explain the importance of wearing a tie. I'm so perplexed why this is a big deal?

Btw, my son is an extremely good boy, his Rebbe adores him, etc. Bh. He wears a suit on shabbos and looks very put together. What am I missing?
(We don't live in Lakewood in case you're wondering)

Notsobusy

Sun, May 27 2018, 5:54 pm

The only issue here is the principal. We are litvish and the boys I know all wear ties, usually around 6/7 years old they start asking for a tie so they can look like Totty. But I never heard that a boy without a tie is a rebel. A boy should wear the same levush as his father, I'd be more worried about a boy who wants to be different than his father.

IMO the principal is 100% wrong.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, May 27 2018, 5:59 pm

Obviously, in that shool, a tie is like a white shirt. Or black felt borsalino. Part of the dress code. We can argue until we’re blue in the face about the merits of this dress code, but the point is it’s expected of the boys to wear it on certain occasions.
Good luck! Perhaps this shows the school isn’t for you. Dunno...

thunderstorm

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:00 pm

amother wrote:

Short jacket, bent down hat.
Apparently it's a big deal to this menahel. Dh doesn't care either way so he will buy ds a tie, but I'm just trying to understand. Question

I think that your DH needs to talk to the principal. It sends a message to your son that he is "better" and "less rebellious" than his father. Even though it's totally not true.
We had similar when my DS wore a short suit to a Chasidish school. The bachurim all wore tzitzis on top of their shirts and my DH and DS wear it under the shirt. The menahel approached my DS too. My husband called the menahel and explained to him that this was his levush and he had a halachic reason as well as to why he wore his tzitzis under his shirt. The menahel never said boo again.
Just because he is the principal doesn't mean he is right. He needs to have a discussion with the father and leave your DS out of it.
My DS just had a situation where a Chasidish boy in litvish Yeshiva was told to cut his peyos and put it behind his ears instead of curly in the front. I don't know why menahelim feel it's their job to choose the levush of boys that are following their fathers levush.

amother

Ecru

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:06 pm

He doesn't need to wear it in school, so it is not to show kavod for learning; only in shul on shabbos and to classmates bar mitzvahs.
The principal doesn't usually daven in this shul, but he saw ds one week on shabbos and a few times at the bar mitzvahs not wearing a tie.
Ds was dressed very respectfully and like I said he's a good respectful boy. Never makes trouble in class, even though a lot of kids goof off by secular studies etc.
There are a mix of yeshivish and non yeshivish boys in the school and in our town.

Dh explained to ds that it's not important to him, but since it's important to the menahel he will buy one.

thunderstorm

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:10 pm

amother wrote:

He doesn't need to wear it in school, only in shul on shabbos and to classmates bar mitzvahs.
The principal doesn't usually daven in this shul, but he saw ds one week on shabbos and a few times at the bar mitzvahs not wearing a tie.
Ds was dressed very respectfully and like I said he's a good respectful boy. Never makes trouble in class, even though a lot of kids goof off by secular studies etc.
There are a mix of yeshivish and non yeshivish boys in the school and in our town.

This is something that would bother my DH and he wouldn't just go buy a tie because the principal made a big deal. I understand that if you grow up yeshivish that is the levush, but this is not how your son grew up. It's like asking a litvish boy that attends Chasidish Yeshiva to wear a bekesha on Shabbos . It's a ridiculous demand in my opinion. The more we give power to these individuals to control us and fit and squeeze us into a box the more they will get away with it. I know I sound harsh , I feel it's very wrong

Notsobusy

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:13 pm

amother wrote:

Short jacket, bent down hat.
ETA, dh wears a bent up.

Apparently it's a big deal to this menahel. Dh doesn't care either way so he will buy ds a tie, but I'm just trying to understand. Question

The principal is making a big mistake. He should be teaching his students to respect, honor and continue their parents' traditions, not change to suit his preferences. I don't think your husband should give in on this one, I think it's setting a bad example for your son. Mesorah is very important to us as frum Yidden, and levush is a big part of that.

Even here in Lakewood, I've seen more than once, a chassidish boy in a litvish yeshiva, with his full chassidish levush.

thunderstorm

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:16 pm

amother wrote:

Well I guess since dh moved away from his own father's levush he can't really complain about that.
He did stand up for ds to his rebbe about another issue, I guess he needs to pick his battles.

Your DH chose his levush as an adult. He chose to dress heimish. That is different than litvish/ yeshivish and they don't wear ties.
My issue is not so much the tie. It starts with the tie and then it's going to be the next thing

Notsobusy

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:16 pm

amother wrote:

OP here, periwinkle - it seems like a tie is important then. Do you know why?
Its interesting to me they won't take it off on vacation; wow

I see very, very few yeshivish guys with ties on all the time. I see more men who never take off their hats and jackets, even while playing in a park with their kids. I've even seen guys on boats in middle of Lake Carasaljo with their hats and jackets. I even one saw a bunch of yeshivish guys pushing a car out of a flooded street in a major rainstorm wearing their hats and jackets. But they are hardly ever wearing ties.

Yes, our men and boys wear ties on Shabbos and to simchos, but it's not THAT important.

amother

Papaya

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:37 pm

I think I understand what the principal meant-

A short jacket suit, bent down hat, tie, shows that one conforms with the yeshivish/litvish community
While the long jacket, up hat, no tie shows that one is part of the chassidishe velt

It must be hard for a young boy not to be here or there... perhaps when he gets older he will feel so confused and not try to be a part of anything

Also I have seen men give up the tie and eventually they gave up the jacket too and later on it was the white shirt

The gear of a Ben Torah in the Yeshivish community is a jacket with tie and hat when they are formal.

You clearly stated that you are not following chassidish minhagim anymore so if you’re going the litvish way the tie would be part of it

It sounds like your son is a very good boy who wants to make his parents and teachers proud. You should have much nachas and siyata dishmaya raising your children!

thunderstorm

Sun, May 27 2018, 6:48 pm

amother wrote:

You are incorrect. There IS a levush of wearing a short suit and up hat or down hat. That is my boys levush and no tie. This has nothing to do with being here or there. It is these principals that are trying to convince anyone that is not either long suit, bent up no tie or short suit, bent down , tie , that they are misfits and don't belong!!! They are judging based on a levush and labeling them "appearing to be rebellious". It's all about kavod for the school that their boys dress exactly the way they dress. Enough is enough!!! I'm sick and tired of this attitude. I don't care if you are Chasidish, heimish or litvish or yeshivish. Stop pushing everyone into boxes and making parents have no say in their own upbringing of their own children! Stop being control freaks and teach yiras shamayim. Stop focusing on chitzonius for a change!!!!!

Notsobusy

Sun, May 27 2018, 7:16 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

I totally agree with every word you wrote. The principals like this are the ones causing our boys to rebel, nothing to do with their ties.

Notsobusy

Sun, May 27 2018, 7:19 pm

amother wrote:

Her son isn't giving up his tie, it's not his family's levush so there is no reason to wear it. Besides, giving up a tie doesn't necessarily lead to giving up a jacket and white shirt. Let everyone wear what they want. H-shem doesn't care if no men wear ties!

Also, not chassidish doesn't equal litvish. There are many, many frum men who are neither chassidish or litvish.