Today show interview

FranticFrummie

Tue, May 29 2018, 9:19 am

My heart breaks for her. 7 kids in 6 years, and no treatment for PPD. Finally, she has a nervous breakdown. No emotional support or understanding from anyone. I'm not the least bit surprised that she snapped.

Considering her experience with her husband, I'm also not surprised that she found women to be more empathetic, affectionate, and supportive.

I hope that her kids are doing OK, and that Hashem will guide her husband to take care of them so they can have a good life. I pray that some day the kids will realize that their mother loves them, no matter how flawed she is.

Overall, I can't judge Etty harshly. It's a sad story all around. Crying

southernbubby

Tue, May 29 2018, 10:02 am

When people marry quickly and while in their teens, they often don't know who they really are and what their feelings about marriage and zexuality are. She realized this about herself after going through all of this.

OTOH, the father of the children wants his children to grow up frum and sees her as an obstacle to that. He never imagined that he would have any obstacle to raising them frum. I can see why he is doing everything that he can legally to prevent her from raising his children. He doesn't have to take her views into consideration.

OTOH again, various rights groups are getting involved to make sure that LGBT rights are upheld and that she doesn't lose simply for her zexual identity.

I feel sorry for her children who are caught in the middle as there is no easy answer for them.

Bluesky 1

Tue, May 29 2018, 11:20 am

I feel that going to the media, is not gonna help her at all. How's the today show gonna help her except asking for hatred of Jews? I guess that's her agenda

I happen to know 2 families where one parent went otd. And the kids are all frum because the non frum parent didn't create all this drama.

The agenda of thesis woman is to get her kids away from this lifestyle and she's creating it more then anyone else. I also went through divorce I can tell exactly why and what her agenda is. Revenge. She could have found a peaceful wy or a mentchlich way but she didn't. She went to the media.

She sure isn't gaining anything now. If her goal was her kids then she did not do the right thing

southernbubby

Tue, May 29 2018, 11:26 am

Bluesky 1 wrote:

I feel that going to the media, is not gonna help her at all. How's the today show gonna help her except asking for hatred of Jews? I guess that's her agenda

There are all sorts of rights groups who want to level the legal playing field and going to the media will get more of them on her side. At the present, the frum community has lots of power and judges often side with frum litigants in custody battles but now that women's and LGBT groups are on the bandwagon, she has a chance at a more fair settlement.

From her perspective, protecting Jews has no value at all, just like from her ex-husband's perspective, her feelings, view, or rights mean nothing and he views her as an obstacle to the success of his children in the frum world.

southernbubby

Tue, May 29 2018, 11:29 am

Miri7 wrote:

I feel that ostracizing a mother in this fashion and ensuring that she loses custody is a great way to make the kids go OTD later in life. It’s cruel.

This woman was struggling with depression, also probably the stress of having so many kids so quickly, and was trying to get out of a bad marriage. The community made it impossible for her to stay. It’s a shanda.

The kids could go OTD because they were thrown out of school because of her and because she herself is not frum. They could also go OTD because she can't care for so many children without losing it.

In a contested divorce, cruelty is relative. Each side claims to be the victim.

SixOfWands

Tue, May 29 2018, 11:40 am

Bluesky 1 wrote:

Do the non-frum parents you know get to spend time with the kids?

In her case, she does not have legal custody, meaning that she is not entitled to make any decisions for the children whatsoever. Not medical. Not schooling. Nothing.

She is also entitled only to limited supervised visitation.

How would you feel if you only got to see your kids once every couple of weeks, for an hour, in a sterile environment while being watched over in every move you make.

You can't take them out for their birthdays, or host a party. Can't take them to buy a pair of shoes or a new dress.

Not welcome at school conferences. Can't take them to school, or pick them up.

Can't make them dinner, or lunch, or a snack. Even if its as glatt as glatt can be.

Can't kiss them goodnight, or tuck them in, or kiss a boo boo, or watch them play games, or hug them when they're sad or sick.

Inevitably, and quickly, she is no longer a mother. She's a stranger, whom they're obligated to spend time with until they rebel and refuse. Which is inevitable.

What did she do to deserve that? What did her kids do?

She was never given a change to be reasonable. Not by her ex-husband. Not by the community. No one ever said Etty, you love the kids. They love you. Let's work it out.

In this case, the only way to avoid "drama" would be to do what so many others who went OTD have agreed to do -- walk away, and never see the kids again. And that's almost never best for the kids.

Would you just walk away? You say you're divorced. If the only way to be "peaceful" for you ex-husband would be to never see your kids again, would you walk away the way you want her to? If not, how can you ask her to?

[AIUI, the publicity is to try to raise funds to fight her ex and the community for rights to see the kids.]

southernbubby

Tue, May 29 2018, 11:57 am

SixOfWands wrote:

What I don't understand, however, was the level of naivety that she showed regarding the response of the community and of her ex. I would think that anyone who grew up in that community would understand the consequences for leaving but she claims that when her home was surrounded, that it was the first time that she realized that she would be up against anything so powerful. I don't understand why she expected her ex or her community to be supportive or to try to work it out due to her love for the kids. This is a community that will throw kids out of schools for much less than a mother going OTD.

And sometimes kids have a lot of anger at parents who raised them in such a world and then pulled them away from it. We can't fathom what this confusion must be like for kids who have one parent who leaves. We can't fathom the alienation and embarrassment that the feel within the community and what it does to their future there. If a parent leaves, then by default, sometimes it means that the kids have to leave as well. This community is not committed to political correctness. They see no benefit from fostering this relationship and possibly the older kids no longer want to live with her.

heidi

Tue, May 29 2018, 1:37 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I think when you're in the community, its collective power against outsiders is not relevant to your life and not something you would be likely to understand.
My heart goes out to her and to her poor children.

southernbubby

Tue, May 29 2018, 1:42 pm

Jeanette wrote:

interesting to contrast the responses to this thread and the Goffstein thread.

(In case you're wondering, my view is the Goffstein case is a travesty and this case is a travesty.)

The judge was mad at Goffstein for not sending her kids to a school with accredited secular studies but the children in Ettie's case are also not going to an accredited secular program and she would probably send them to one if it was up to her but she is not being given that opportunity and the case is actually to prevent that type of education from happening. Probably her lawyers could use that in court; that the father of the children is preventing secular subjects and may force the boys into marriage at age 17. What seems to be happening, however, is that the father's case is that she agreed to a religious lifestyle and then changed horses midstream to the detriment of the children.

southernbubby

Tue, May 29 2018, 1:45 pm

heidi wrote:

Yes but everyone in the community knows that on some level, there is a price to pay for any deviance. They are afraid of being caught with cell phones, computers, etc. and any deviation from tznius is quickly noticed. I would think that anyone growing up in that environment would know that going to the police for a restraining order would not make the community rally to your defense.

thunderstorm

Tue, May 29 2018, 1:49 pm

This women was my sisters best friend in elementary school. Isn't it ironic that it was this girls mother who contacted the principal to tell my sister that her daughter can't come to our house for Shabbos because we had a single mother and there is "no one" to make Kiddush.
This sent a message to my sister that your parents are divorced so you can't have friends over for Shabbos, like she did something wrong.
The woman recently found my sister on social media and reached out . My sister reminded her of this story. The women said "yup . That's my controlling mother. It is her own mother that is not allowing her custody of her children. She went from being this perfect girl to being so messed up. I think she was stigmatized for her mental illness.

Last edited by thunderstorm on Tue, May 29 2018, 2:06 pm; edited 2 times in total

SixOfWands

Tue, May 29 2018, 1:58 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Let's assume that you're right on all of this. No, let's not. Let's assume that dad is giving them the Mercedes of secular education in addition to religious education, and is Father of the Year. Let's assume he's amazing.

Why does that mean that the children should only be allowed to see their mother under supervision?

Why can't BOTH parents have a relationship with their kids?