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Maya

Thu, May 31 2018, 9:58 am

southernbubby wrote:

She has given some interviews to the press so she has gotten her info out there:

https://www.haaretz.com/us-new.....71472

But as we know there are always 2 sides to every story and from the people on here and what many of us have witnessed personally, the Chassidishe community does not rally around every person whose spouse goes OTD and wants visitation. Not every OTD person is expelled from their families and put in cheirum by the community.

Do you feel that everything that she tells the press is the complete unvarnished truth? Even if you had negative experiences in the Chassidishe community, is there a chance that not everything she said was correct? She sounds like she knew nothing about marriage but there are Chassidishe posters on here who did know what they were going to encounter regarding intimacy so what went wrong in her circumstances? Her story doesn't sound typical although we do know that Footsteps has over 1000 members (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footsteps_(organization)) and not every OTD person joins Footsteps so is her story representative of a larger problem or was she just both unlucky and unwell? Is the Chassidishe community experiencing a mass exodus of people like Etty or did something go very wrong for her as an individual? I have a feeling that she represents a very small minority of people. Her story is only of real interest if it indicates a reason to change the way marriage is handled by the community. Otherwise, it is just a sad story with a debate about how much religion should play in custody disputes.

Wow, the reading comprehension levels in this conversation.

For the third time, I didn’t take sides. I didn’t watch the show or read her interviews. I’m ONLY taking issue with the gossiping and hearsay here that we’re expected to take as absolute truths based on some posts of random anonymous women on the internet, and anyone arguing against that is automatically labeled as anti charedi.

But anyway, citrus has eloquently explained above why this conversation is, and always will be, useless.

Maya

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:01 am

InnerMe wrote:

Maya- why the biting remarks?

My weak spots are hypocrisy and injustice. I can’t help but fight against that. I apologize if it offends you.

Maya

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:03 am

flowerpower wrote:

Because it's personal for her. It always will be.

And you’re a bastion of impartiality.

We can go head to head on this, if you want to make it personal. That comment was directed at me, no one asked for your input, and then you’re going to cry about how Im always so mean to the chassidish posters.

tweek

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:04 am

citrus wrote:

There is only one truth, that is Torah, you know that deep down.

May have people stumbled? possibly. But they are trying to go back up and do the right thing.
That pales in comparison to someone who went outright against God.

Just want to point out that this is not necessarily representative of what the rest of us are saying.

The Torah is the ultimate TRUTH, but that doesn’t mean that in every personal dispute, you automatically assume that the Frum person is right. Frum people are human and make mistakes too.

By saying this, you are automatically discrediting the very real things some of us are saying.

InnerMe

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:05 am

Maya wrote:

My weak spots are hypocrisy and injustice. I can’t help but fight against that. I apologize if it offends you.

It doesn't offend me.

It makes it hard to hear your possibly valid points.

It's hard to have a conversation, when anyone with an opposing opinion becomes an opportunity for personal attack and derision.

citrus

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:06 am

tweek wrote:

"Frum people are human and make mistakes too."
Is exactly what I wrote - reread my post.

Maya

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:06 am

InnerMe wrote:

I agree.

southernbubby

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:07 am

Maya wrote:

It is as useless as what someone does with it. Obviously, as in all disputes there are both stated and non-stated facts and so no human will know all the facts in any dispute and we know that when we get involved with disputes.

If however, we look at this situation and decide what we as a frum community can do when making shidduchim and educating engaged couples, and make changes or when looking at whatever law makers are doing about custody disputes and seeing what role we as average citizens can plan in it, then it is not a useless conversation.

I admit that I don't always get it when I read something here.

tweek

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:09 am

citrus wrote:

"Frum people are human and make mistakes too."
Is exactly what I wrote - reread my post.

Yes but in the previous post (sorry I don’t know how to quote 2 in one thread) you said that you are choosing sides based on which one is Frum so I am pointing out why that is flawed logic.

Maya

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:13 am

southernbubby wrote:

I meant that the conversation about who is being more truthful is useless, as many people take the position of frum vs not frum above all.

But you’re right, conversations about the state of affairs in religious marriages and custody battles are worthy of our time and our efforts. I myself am taking a small part in a greater effort that’s trying to help, and awareness and education go a long way in affecting change for the better.

pause

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:50 am

InnerMe wrote:

Pause- just a shout out to you, I really admire the way you respectfully state what you want to say without getting defensive.

I don't know my opinions on this thread.

I don't know who Etty is. I don't know her ex dh.
I just see the tension on this thread.

Thanks!

southernbubby

Thu, May 31 2018, 12:36 pm

Maya wrote:

Yay, I see that we are on the same page, in time for me to go weed the garden!

I am glad that there are those such as yourself that are taking action to educate others that tragedies such as this one can be prevented by arming oneself with knowledge both in the marriage culture of the Chassidishe community and in how to retain custody in a divorce where there is a difference in religious observance.

And I agree that no positive change takes place by simply passing judgement, shifting blame, or passing hearsay information. We have to basically ask ourselves, "what can we learn from this?" For me as a grandparent, it would be not to pressure any grandchild to marry before they feel ready and to understand what marriage entails when they do get married.

crust

Thu, May 31 2018, 5:19 pm

citrus wrote:

Right, this thread is only about hearing Etties "facts", and giving her full support. Regardless of the truth.

This thread is about everyone rehashing what they have already said a few times not only on this thread but in all the threads bout Etty.

crust

Thu, May 31 2018, 7:09 pm

cnc wrote:

Your math is off, she has two sets of twins.

I think you know that my post was not about the exact math.

cnc wrote:

And parents and in laws don’t always have a say or hesitate to get involved.

But, they did have a say before she got married. How come they married thier son off to someone so (according to this site) sick.
Obviously, there was something at least partially healthy there.

If she only became sick after having children, what happened in the interim?

cnc wrote:

You’re looking at things very simplistically here.

To say that someone is not fit to have her children because she was institutionalized because of PPD, is simplistic.

To say that she is not well based on the knowledge that 5 years ago she was not well, is simplistic.

What bothers me here is the unequivocal conclusion that she must be mentally ill.

I am wondering how much of the illness was added or exacerbated by the stigma that was attatched to her once she was in psych ward.

I hope that we, as a community, have not contributed to this sad situation by waving her away as "meh. Zee hut mit dee nerven".

Stigma and name calling can make any person go heywire, especially when the person is vulnerable.

shiaeisen

Thu, May 31 2018, 7:24 pm

WhatFor wrote:

"But chillul hashem!" Is not going to be a strong detterent to someone who doesn't believe in religion and/or God.

But it should matter to those of us who do care Bantu chilul Hashem and therefore we are to be smart enough not to believe the word of someone like that....

shiaeisen

Thu, May 31 2018, 7:26 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Either that or that she feels that they still owe the community the respect even if they were treated badly or that an OTD still cares enough about Hashem to avoid bad press.

Normal, healthy and stable people do not go to the press, forget about Frum or not Frum. Even the exhibitionists who go on the various talk shows to spill their guts about their lives on tv have something seriously wrong.

southernbubby

Thu, May 31 2018, 7:45 pm

shiaeisen wrote:

I think it was already established here that she has some issues. I think people do go to the press when they want society to take the action that they want society to take! Look what happened to Baby Charlie and Baby Alfie! The parents spoke to the press hoping that someone would intervene with the British government and save their children. I can't blame them for talking to the press on behalf of their babies.

southernbubby

Thu, May 31 2018, 7:46 pm

shiaeisen wrote:

But it should matter to those of us who do care Bantu chilul Hashem and therefore we are to be smart enough not to believe the word of someone like that....

I look at anything that I read in the news that way; it could be total fiction.

southernbubby

Thu, May 31 2018, 7:48 pm

crust wrote:

I would just tell my children to make sure that when their children are engaged and learning about marriage and intimacy, that they are told everything they need to know including when to call a rav about birth control. I don't like this business of thinking that couples will successfully figure it out on their own. Some people are not that clever.

PinkFridge

Thu, May 31 2018, 8:33 pm

Maya wrote:

Maya and I are from different circles, and currently living in different circles.
I have to agree with the point of her post.
I realize this is a painful story. Go to my first post on this thread and you can see my reaction - basically, someone who left her community, not without having first gone through some level of gehenom, and is for some reason that I don't know but that would likely make me cringe, going public with it. Subsequent posts and various likes have been about my discomfort with and reservations about some posts.

I can accept the possibility that the imamothers here who claim to know her really do, and are responding because they feel that good people are being wrongly slandered. Be that as it may, let me repeat Maya's words:

I’m ONLY taking issue with the gossiping and hearsay here that we’re expected to take as absolute truths based on some posts of random anonymous women on the internet,

However, I am not an ex-anything, and haven't been vocal about my being an ex-something, so no one is leaping to the conclusion that I am anti-chareidi.

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