Splurging for shabbos

Mommyg8

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 11:38 am

amother wrote:

The gemara in pesachim (in a series of rather strange instructions) says it's better to make your shabbos a weekday (have nothing special) than to rely on others. There's some discussion in the Rishonim about whether this means taking tzedaka or borrowing money. In any case, the advice is not to spend what you cannot afford.

I've gone through some hard financial times in the past, and this used to worry me, then I looked around at other people's weekday meals and I realized that I still have a long way to go LOL

.

No matter what kind of financial situation I am in, I won't serve a pareve cholent. So sue me. In any case, food is a very tiny part of my budget these days, so saving the $10 - $15 a week I spend on cholent meat (chuck) is just not going to make a real difference either way...

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 1:28 pm

amother wrote:

This is not naive or stupid! This is emunah. If you believe it you will see Hashem will pay you back for whatever you spent on shabbos. I have personal stories...

There may be some people on this madreiga though one has to be honest with themselves. The vast majority of people aren't on this level.

I also think there's a difference whether you're talking basics so that you're kids have something 'normal' to eat or buying extras that you don't need just because 'Hashem will provide'.

My Yeshivish Rav said in a shiur recently that if one can't afford meat, one shouldn't buy any for yom tov.

amother

Beige

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 2:33 pm

if your on a tight budget (and food budget) then things like strawberries and melon or candy and cookies are a treat for shabbos.
we are on a very tight budget and during the week the fruit is apples and pears but the melon or grapes are for shabbos. same with nuts and candy (and I mean 2 bags of candy planet served in nice dishes at the end of the meal - not a massive tray of candy)
we rarely have meat shabbos - but bh we have Chicken. during the week salad is always tomatoe cuc and lettuce but shabbos its broccolli eggplant salad or something nicer. I rarely buy ice cream as its expenaive but bake nicely for desert.
I think my point is you can "splurge " for shabbos within a small budget and make shabbos extra special by spending only a little extra each week.

southernbubby

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 5:27 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm waiting for the question "May I have more children if I can't afford the tuition?"

And I would love a real yeshivish Rav to answer that question. Because even with scholarships, tuition is still a pretty penny. At least in my community.

I think that an even better question is what to do when the family is already going without adequate food, medical and dental care, wearing torn shoes, etc. It is questionable to me, that even if the yeshiva gives such impoverished people complete scholarships, that children who grow up lacking enough clean diapers, and worried about how they will have utilities, won't be very receptive to what is being taught in yeshiva, even if it is totally free.

allthingsblue

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 5:32 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

There's a whole podcast on the headlines podcast about that. It's called "family planning, a halachik view" and features Rabbi Forst from Chicago, a rabbi from Baltimore, rabbi Schechter from YU and rabbi schmerling (chabad in far rockaway). Interesting how there were a few different responses to the question!

southernbubby

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 5:38 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

There was one podcast that was specifically about BC for financial reasons and while the rabbonim prohibited it, there was a general consensus that there are some people who are not capable of adequately supporting a family and they might be in a different category then the type who needs to re-prioritize their spending in order to afford more children.

Mommyg8

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 5:50 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I don't know what re-prioritizing spending is supposed to mean. How many parents make enough money to pay eight to ten full tuitions?

I have always understood that birth control for financial reasons is not allowed, and I have spoken to non-Yeshivish people who have been told this as well.

I was just pointing out the irony that someone should not borrow money to buy a cake for Shabbos, yet they are supposed to somehow come up with the huge amounts for tuition (which yes, many people borrow for) - since I always understood that tzorchei Shabbos and chinuch habonim/bonos are in the same category.

amother

Silver

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 5:58 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

As someone who is 20 feet deep in financial stress at the moment, I'm struggling with the truth of it all, especially in regards to chinuch habonom and tzorchei Shabbos. If there's any truth to it, where the h*ll is money for the tuition and for even the basics of Shabbos.

Excuse my language, but the current pain and struggle is too great.

southernbubby

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 6:05 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

What if the question to the rav was whether or not to have more children but either home school them or send them to public school and forfeit yeshiva? Is it more important to have fewer children but give them an adequate yeshiva education, or is it more important to have more children but omit the yeshiva education? What if that is the choice?

southernbubby

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 6:15 pm

amother wrote:

Don't worry about the language. Hell is a place even if it is an emotional place. I am not sure why it is considered foul language.

I think that a bunch of parents who are struggling with this question of how the h*ll to pay for all of the tuitions plus Shabbos and routine expenses should make an organization and as a group approach rabbonim for answers.

We tell kids to focus on learning, forget about secular studies and vocational training, but marry young, have lots of kids, give them all yeshiva from age 3 to 21 and then kollel, give lots of tzedukah, have lots of orchim, do everything hiddur mitzvah and balabatish, live in an expensive frum neighborhood, etc. Our rabbonim need to come up with answers.

My great grandparents, who were frum, had 10 kids, lived in a poor shtetle, lost two kids in infancy, sent no one to yeshiva or seminary, and in the end, most of their kids were not frum; in fact, I don't think that any were frum because there was one cousin who was my mother's generation who became BT when she got married, well before there was a trend to become a BT. She was a grandchild to one of the older children and I was a grandchild of the youngest.
It was lucky for them that a few of us were BTs. Their prayers came to fruition.

DVOM

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 6:42 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I think we need to come up with our own answers.

This reminds me of some conversations my husband and I had when all the Jewish publications were talking about solutions to the 'shidduch crisis.' When the idea was published that boys should start dating at 21 to level the playing field, we laughed. What a ridiculous idea, we said to each other. None of the 21-year-olds we knew were ready for marriage and children and forget about being ready to support themselves or their families. A much more realistic and practical idea would be to ask girls to wait until 21 or 22 to start dating. This would do as much to even the age gap, and would have the added benefit of giving young women more time to invest in their schooling. Young men dating earlier might solve one problem, but would compound a host of others, some of which you mentioned: very young men marrying and having kids before they have a chance to mature, to consider their choices, to develop any sort of career.

Well, it's several years later, and young men starting to date at 21 has become the thing to do. I truly can't understand it. No one ever suggested women starting to date later, or if they did, those opinions weren't published. I know, instinctively, that this solution would be considered 'less frum' but I can't articulate why.

The whole business left me so disturbed. I've given up on hoping that the community at large will push for practical solutions to communal problems such as these. I'll have to settle for making choices that make sense to me for myself and my kids.

Mommyg8

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 6:47 pm

DVOM wrote:

That's really funny, because I'm seeing the opposite. All the boys I know are STILL waiting to date until they're 23, yet I'm hearing more and more from the girls that they are pushing off dating until they are more established with their careers, finished college, etc.

Most of the Rosh Yeshivos are not on board with the 21 thing.

And in my circles (very frum) girls starting to date later is becoming more and more accepted.

So I'm not sure what you're seeing.

amother

Amber

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 6:50 pm

southernbubby wrote:

We tell kids to focus on learning, forget about secular studies and vocational training, but marry young, have lots of kids, give them all yeshiva from age 3 to 21 and then kollel, give lots of tzedukah, have lots of orchim, do everything hiddur mitzvah and balabatish, live in an expensive frum neighborhood, etc. Our rabbonim need to come up with answers.

My dh has the cynical view that Roshei yeshiva are the frum counterpart to university professors, who live in their ivory towers and are removed from the realities that people have to deal with.

They speak of ideals, but then their students follow these ideals and find themselves in difficult situations and with no reasonable financial plan.

amother

Amber

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 6:58 pm

DVOM wrote:

Right, push off marriage or, alternatively, get married but push off having kids--except that would be problematic halachically.

But pushing off marriage is also seen as problematic; more likely for young people to put themselves into questionable situations from a tzniyus perspective, or to ch"vsh turn into "older singles" [/sarcasm]

amother

Silver

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 7:16 pm

amother wrote:

The normal order of things, even per the Jewish way, is to try to settle the Gashmiyus factors then focus on the Ruchniyus factors. The problems we have today are precisely because we are doing the reverse.

southernbubby

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 7:24 pm

DVOM wrote:

This is what is actually happening; people coming to their own conclusions because they want to follow the Torah and be frum and live with emunah but they also have to be able to live within the means that Hashem gave them.

amother

Silver

Mon, Jun 04 2018, 7:55 pm

amother wrote:

I partially agree. The gashmiyus today is clearly out of control.

But it's also the first time in history afaik where we have widespread, long term kollel or guys devoting themselves solely to learning for the first several years of marriage.

With Gashmiyus, I was referring to the basics of life, food, income, housing. If the basics are settled and there is stability in the home, spirituality has much more of chance of taking hold and expanding.

The reverse causes much pain, stress and can consequently decrease spirituality.