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Its about time
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 7:44 am
I am a yeshivish kollel wife going into our 18th year of marriage (just for context) and I CARE VERY MUCH THANK YOU. You know who is making the bar mitzva or wedding of the child? Both mother and father, that's who, and I take great offense that what's written is "Mr. John and His Wife." Excuse me, you mean the wife that bore this child, was up all night nursing him, and in general, was the primary caregiver? THAT WIFE??

And to those who say - what's the big deal? It's historical. No. It's not. Historical is "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe." Not "Mr. John Doe and his wife." You certainly have a right to not care, but by the same token, I have a right to be offended. And (to quote above poster) since there's no actual tznius prohibition in mention wife's name, offending a great many women across the board is tznius run amok and a "mitzvah" (if you could call it that) haba'h al yidai aveira.

And, as we all know, words do matter. They create judgements and perceptions. Can anyone explain why this is done altogether? My (again, yeshivish and well-learned) husband is at loss for answer. The only answer I have EVER heard was "why does this bother you?" IN other words, there is no answer.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 8:05 am
I dont understand the answer of 'why should it bother you'. I mean, why shouldnt it?
I also abhor the traditional Mr and Mrs John Doe form of address and am lucky to live in a country where that is just not done.
It's enough that women are expected to change their last names. We should forget about our first names too?
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 8:08 am
amother wrote:
I dont understand the answer of 'why should it bother you'. I mean, why shouldnt it?
I also abhor the traditional Mr and Mrs John Doe form of address and am lucky to live in a country where that is just not done.
It's enough that women are expected to change their last names. We should forget about our first names too?


For me saying Mr. John Doe and His Wife is just a whole 'nother level of offensiveness. I'm always shocked to hear that women are NOT offended by that. And disgusted that they act like I'm a crazed feminist for wanting my name on my son's bar mitzvah invitation. Like, is putting my name on there nothing more than basic kavod habrios? Feminism?? NO way. Basic menchlachkeit.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 8:09 am
Back to the actual article,
I think it's very nice that ladies can show their faces and have a voice but I feel like it's getting out of hand and causing jealousy. I don't think this will end well
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 9:00 am
amother wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about... the seforim stores I walk into have boys and girls equally... The adult books usually don't have any people on the cover, but if they do - I haven't seen more boys than girls.
The children's books usually have one of each. Even the very frum yiddish ones like "Malky and Yossele"

And once again.
Malky and Yossele is at least 10 years old.
New Jewish children books with both girls and boys in the plot and on the cover is hard to find. Not impossible, but hard enough that it bothers me. A lot.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 9:48 am
farm wrote:
And once again.
Malky and Yossele is at least 10 years old.
New Jewish children books with both girls and boys in the plot and on the cover is hard to find. Not impossible, but hard enough that it bothers me. A lot.


The Bamboo Cradle was just reprinted with the womens face on the cover.
Stories straight from Mommys Heart has the mom on the cover.
Mimmy and Simmy (recently reprinted) has the girls on the covers.
'How does she Manage?' has drawings of womens faces on the cover.

But the idea why women are omitted from magazines etc is because women are special. You wouldnt display a diamond outside for everyone to see. You would keep it in a safe place and treasure it. It comes from the parsha where it says "Hinei Sara B'ohel".

But honestly I couldnt care less either way.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 9:57 am
LovesHashem wrote:
History.
Why do you take your DH's last name and not keep yours?
It's an old practice that no one ever changed. It's not like people ae BIDAVKA leaving the woman's name out.


I didn't take DH's name. Most of my friends use their given name at least professionally, if not socially.

And it is leaving the woman's name out when you Jim Smith and Family. Unless your first name is "Family."
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 9:57 am
There was an interesting article fighting to get out, but of course, that's not what the writer chose to address. In fact, I looked to see if Ari Feldman was doing the reporting, since it usually takes someone of his cluelessness to overlook or distort the most interesting angles.

The real story, it seems to me, is that the Orthodox community has a somewhat different relationship with print publications than the rest of the world because of Shabbos and Yom Tov. How many of us still get Time and Newsweek in our mailboxes each week? How many of us still subscribe to a daily newspaper? Yet many of us buy weekly print publications specifically to read on Shabbos.

So these print publications manage to stay in business, but only by ensuring that their product is as uncontroversial as possible. Forget pictures of women! The content itself must be watered down and burdened with so many qualifiers as to make it meaningless.

Print publications, therefore, are a particularly poor representation of the social, religious, and economic life of the Orthodox world -- a sort of lowest common denominator. The realities are found on Instagram, et. al.

I would have been interested in hearing how Jewish publishers feel pressured by increasingly sophisticated social media; whether they've made changes in their editorial standards to accommodate readers accustomed to social media; how they think they can stay relevant in a world where fragmented audiences can be targeted easily and cheaply; whether their role as Shabbos reading material changes their mission . . .

Lots of interesting, thought-provoking questions that actual reporters might have asked. Instead, the same stale story about Orthodox women.

Oh, and when I'm at work or using my first name for whatever reason, I'm Ms. Chana Fox. When I'm at home or in a social setting, I'm Mrs. Chaim Fox. I am never, ever Mrs. Chana Fox. Except on the place cards at DD's recent chassunah, where I gave in to passive-aggressive manipulation because I didn't want to be as much of a troublemaker IRL as I am on Imamother.
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rgr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:15 am
amother wrote:
Who cares???? ...

And the poster who mentioned that the wife's name is omitted and she does most of the work for the wedding: would you REALLY want your husband to do the bride's and bridesmaids gowns choosing and shopping? Choose the bridal flowers and accessories and table centerpieces, color of tablecloths and napkins? The menu? e.t.c e.t.c

I wouldn't. I'm happy if my husband does the picking up and PAYING.


It's not that I want my husband be responsible to shop for gowns, centerpieces etc, but inasmuch that I did all that, I deserve to be written in the invitation. I.e. my contributions are worth as much as his.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:16 am
Fox wrote:


Oh, and when I'm at work or using my first name for whatever reason, I'm Ms. Chana Fox. When I'm at home or in a social setting, I'm Mrs. Chaim Fox. I am never, ever Mrs. Chana Fox. Except on the place cards at DD's recent chassunah, where I gave in to passive-aggressive manipulation because I didn't want to be as much of a troublemaker IRL as I am on Imamother.


But how do you feel about Mr. Chaim Fox and His Wife?

I think those that aren't offended are just knee-jerking to go against anything that smells a whiff of feminism. But some things have no legitimate reason.
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amother
Lime


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:27 am
amother wrote:
But how do you feel about Mr. Chaim Fox and His Wife?

I think those that aren't offended are just knee-jerking to go against anything that smells a whiff of feminism. But some things have no legitimate reason.


I don't bother with the offended bit because I've only ever received invitations from Chaim Cohan and wife - never addressed to Mr. Joe Shmoe and his wife... must say if I did my knee jerk reaction would be to complete the reply card (if there was one...) As follows: We look forward to attending, signed wife.
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asmileaday




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:28 am
The "and his wife (v'rayeso)" annoys me as well.

I think people don't change it just because it's the norm and most people don't like to rock the boat.

I am starting to see Bar Mitzva invitations from more with it chassidish people that are signed "Yitzchak and Rivkah Klein".

I like it. I know it's semantics and big deal who cares. But still. It makes much more sense. And doesn't follow the "let's ch"v not mention any hint of a female" mentality.
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cat3




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:30 am
The premise of the article does not make sense. The author is claiming that the use of Instagram is a response to womens' pictures not being included in frum publications. This is not the case. Women would be using Instagram regardless.
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weasley




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:30 am
amother wrote:
But the idea why women are omitted from magazines etc is because women are special. You wouldnt display a diamond outside for everyone to see. You would keep it in a safe place and treasure it. It comes from the parsha where it says "Hinei Sara B'ohel".


I actually dont think anyone would have a problem with a picture of an extremely precious diamond displayed for everyone to see.

The women themselves are not on the front cover it's a picture.
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InnerMe




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:37 am
Ruchel wrote:
Beiso is worse than raayaso. I'm not a building. And don't tell me it's because the wife makes the house.

FTR I'm ok with Mr and Mrs Doe, and can deal with mr and mrs John Doe.
By me Mr John and Mrs Jane Doe isn't divorced.


The bolded may me lol!
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:46 am
amother wrote:
But how do you feel about Mr. Chaim Fox and His Wife?

I think those that aren't offended are just knee-jerking to go against anything that smells a whiff of feminism. But some things have no legitimate reason.

It honestly doesn't bother me because I see it as a social situation where I don't need to assert my independence.

Btw, I feel the same way about women who avoid the use of "Ms." Styling yourself as "Mrs. Chana Fox" just so you can avoid being "Ms. Chana Fox" seems to me to be the coward's way out. Either the situation calls for your independent identity or for your married identity.

I will acknowledge, though, that I was probably influenced by the rather strident attitude at my college, which is influential in the entertainment industry. When I was a student, there were tons of dedications all over campus by Mr. and Mrs. Roger Smith. Mrs. Smith was better known professionally as Ann-Margaret. Nowadays, the alumni bulletins lavish praise on the generosity of Mr. and Mrs. Brad Hall, who have plenty with what to be generous, given that Mrs. Hall is independently wealthy as well as having done successful stints on Seinfeld and Veep, where she is credited as Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

It's kind of a reverse snobbishness -- the better known your name is, the cooler it is seen to be Mrs. John Nobody unless you're actually doing the job for which you're known. Now, the truth is that nobody would know or care if I called myself Queen Elizabeth, but I'm ready, just in case! Very Happy
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:55 am
Ruchel wrote:
Beiso is worse than raayaso. I'm not a building. And don't tell me it's because the wife makes the house.


Well, my reaction would be "hey, I might have gained a few pounds since college, but I'm not big enough that you would confuse me with a house.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:57 am
Fox wrote:
It honestly doesn't bother me because I see it as a social situation where I don't need to assert my independence.

Btw, I feel the same way about women who avoid the use of "Ms." Styling yourself as "Mrs. Chana Fox" just so you can avoid being "Ms. Chana Fox" seems to me to be the coward's way out. Either the situation calls for your independent identity or for your married identity.


Funny, I can probably count on one hand how many times I've come across a woman who prefers Ms. to Miss or Mrs.

But it's kind of a disparity. With Mr., we never know if he's married or not.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 10:58 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Traditionally, a woman was formally addressed as Mrs. HisFirstName HisLastName. So if an invitaiton were going to you only, it would be addressed to Mrs. John Doe. Thus, "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe" refers directly to you.

Personally, I abhor that form of address, but I do understand its history.

"V'raayato" isn't referring to the woman directly, or calling her by any name that she uses in any form. Its the functional equivalent of "hey you."


When my husband and I were first married 41 years ago, I went to the bank to change the name on my account and tried to sign it the way my mother always had, Mrs John Doe, and the bank clerk said it was no longer legal because it was not my first name. At that time, it was even questionable whether or not a woman should change her last name when she got married and it was considered perfectly legitimate to either retain the maiden name or hyphenate it with the married name. It even became viewed as anti-feminist and outdated and quaint for a woman to give up something as intrinsic to who she was as her own name.
And when you think about it, marriage does change a person's status but should it change who the person is or what she is called?
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 07 2018, 11:10 am
amother wrote:
Funny, I can probably count on one hand how many times I've come across a woman who prefers Ms. to Miss or Mrs.

But it's kind of a disparity. With Mr., we never know if he's married or not.


Obviously we hang out in different crowds, as I don't think I know a single person who prefers to be identified by her marital status.
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