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Son wants to go to a chiloni school (israel)
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junam









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 7:14 am
DS16 has been through 5 different schools since we moved to israel 4 years ago.. In the UK he was in a charedi boys school, and went to a talmud torah when we moved to israel. He is never happy with the school and doesn't have any motivation to study and just basically hangs out with friends. During this time he is becoming less and less religious and now doesn't wear a kippa even. Yesterday, he told me he wants to go to a co-ed secular, non religious school next year. Only there he will be happy. he is a kid who hates rules and finds it very hard to abide by them. he wants an easy life and being religious is too many rules for him. he thinks chiloni schools are more fun and that he will enjoy going to school finally.

I really don't know what to do. he is used to getting what he wants and is very manipulative and I feel that this is another way for him to do what he wants regardless of what we say. how can I move to israel, to a place where we are free to be religious and then sends my child to a nonreligious school? How can I allow him to literally reject everything we value while he's living in our house and still a child?

Has anyone gone through this and can offer me some wisdom? Im in so much pain over this. He's our oldest and I'm also worried about the effect on the younger kids.
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amother




Seafoam


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 7:20 am
I'm so sorry. I believe this is a very common scenario for anglo olim. I have a relative who made aliya while in her early teens and she stopped being frum at all for a while. Now she is DL and she married a nice guy from a similar background. (chareidi family, made aliya when he was a young teen)

Israeli society is much more in boxes then in the UK or USA. A chareidi school in the uk will have a much wider range of students than in Israel, and some teach secular studies. There may be kids with TV or smartphones, etc.

Can you find him a good DL school?
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abound









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 7:21 am
what about a shuvu school. Its a school system geared towards children who immigrated from Russia. They have schools in lots of cities.
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amother




Brown


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 7:35 am
junam wrote:
DS16 has been through 5 different schools since we moved to israel 4 years ago.. In the UK he was in a charedi boys school, and went to a talmud torah when we moved to israel. He is never happy with the school and doesn't have any motivation to study and just basically hangs out with friends. During this time he is becoming less and less religious and now doesn't wear a kippa even. Yesterday, he told me he wants to go to a co-ed secular, non religious school next year. Only there he will be happy. he is a kid who hates rules and finds it very hard to abide by them. he wants an easy life and being religious is too many rules for him. he thinks chiloni schools are more fun and that he will enjoy going to school finally.

I really don't know what to do. he is used to getting what he wants and is very manipulative and I feel that this is another way for him to do what he wants regardless of what we say. how can I move to israel, to a place where we are free to be religious and then sends my child to a nonreligious school? How can I allow him to literally reject everything we value while he's living in our house and still a child?

Has anyone gone through this and can offer me some wisdom? Im in so much pain over this. He's our oldest and I'm also worried about the effect on the younger kids.


What are his interests, what is he good at? Maybe there is some sort of trade school that he could attend?
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Ruchel









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 8:15 am
My husband's cousin was sent to a chiloni school becaue the parents were modern. He ended up the only one, with another, who kept shabbes etc, it was very very socially hard, despite the "freedom". BH now he's a rabbi and all.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 8:38 am
OP, rewrite your post with DD instead of DS, and change the age to 15 instead of 16.

You now have the story of my Aliyah with a preteen. I feel your pain. We've decided that homeschooling is going to be the best thing for her right now, combined with therapy. Her yiddishkeit is up to Hashem from this point.

Keep in mind that you gave your DS a solid foundation. If he decides to become frum again someday, at least he has what to come back to.

The good news is, in a few years we may have a shidduch, so keep me in mind! Very Happy
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naomi2









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 8:50 am
Maybe there could be a way for him to attend the school of his choice if he agrees to learn with a religious mentor on a consistent basis, someone who will be a good role model for him so he should keep a positive view of yiddishkeit?
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amother




Lawngreen


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 8:54 am
I really feel for you.
Feel free to discard this out of the box idea but would he want to go to frum school in the UK? Do you have relatives there he could stay with? or Frum boarding schools? Has he kept up with good friends there?
You should have a truly positive turn of events k'cheref ayin.
B'hatzlocha
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BadTichelDay









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 9:07 am
If, as you wrote, he hates rules and finds it very hard to abide by them and he doesn't like learning - maybe make it clear to him that secular schools have their own set of rules and usually emphasize academic achievement. He'll still have to learn, pass exams, do homework and abide by school rules. Instead of religious studies he'll have more secular subjects. It's not all day fun and hanging around either.

Edit: maybe suggest a DL school to him. It's less religiously intensive than hareidi schools but he still is within a Torah observant framework.
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amother




Lilac


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 9:12 am
junam wrote:
DS16 has been through 5 different schools since we moved to israel 4 years ago.. In the UK he was in a charedi boys school, and went to a talmud torah when we moved to israel. He is never happy with the school and doesn't have any motivation to study and just basically hangs out with friends. During this time he is becoming less and less religious and now doesn't wear a kippa even. Yesterday, he told me he wants to go to a co-ed secular, non religious school next year. Only there he will be happy. he is a kid who hates rules and finds it very hard to abide by them. he wants an easy life and being religious is too many rules for him. he thinks chiloni schools are more fun and that he will enjoy going to school finally.

I really don't know what to do. he is used to getting what he wants and is very manipulative and I feel that this is another way for him to do what he wants regardless of what we say. how can I move to israel, to a place where we are free to be religious and then sends my child to a nonreligious school? How can I allow him to literally reject everything we value while he's living in our house and still a child?

Has anyone gone through this and can offer me some wisdom? Im in so much pain over this. He's our oldest and I'm also worried about the effect on the younger kids.


He hasn't rejected everything you value. He's still your son. I know, I know. Its not easy. But remember, this is a snapshot in time. In 15 years, he will likely be somewhat religious, and you will be shepping nachas from your grandchildren.

For now, though, he's 16, and you're not going to win. So put down ground rules at home. As for school, I think you need to impress upon him that chiloni schools aren't all fun and games. He may think that their secular studies are akin to the secular studies at his old schools, and they're not. Get hold of a syllabus, and go through what he will need to do. Then tell him that if you allow him to attend, you will expect him to work hard there, give it his all, and do well. You will also expect him to engage in some sort of Judaic study twice a week, but he can choose what it is.
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amother




Lawngreen


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 9:12 am
I'm sure you have tried everything so forgive me if this is not helpful.
Do you have a mentor or someone there in place who is effective in helping and guiding in these types of situations? unfortunately I assume you are not alone.
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amother




Lawngreen


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 9:13 am
Or a therapist who specializes in these situations successfully?
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amother




Jetblack


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 4:39 pm
Have you thought about a religious or mixed religious and not religious vocational, technological, or agricultural school? Amit has some great highschools like that, and there are many others as well. Kids who find religion and school restricting often do better in this environment - they are geared towards kids who don't fit the box and get kids from all walks of life, plus instead of having a restricting school environment full of lectures, they do regular classes and things like car mechanics, metal shop, gardening, etc.
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junam









  


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 4:58 pm
Thanks for all the replies. Ds started off in a charedi school, then moved to chardal, then dati leumi and now barely dati. He wants completely secular. He has this notion that chiloni schools are fun and the lessons are a lot of fun. He says his chiloni friends enjoy going to school and he wants this.
I really don’t have anyone to get guidance from. We tried a psychologist but it didn’t work out. I really need a Rabbi or someone who has experience with this situation.
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amother




Brown


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 5:52 pm
junam wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. Ds started off in a charedi school, then moved to chardal, then dati leumi and now barely dati. He wants completely secular. He has this notion that chiloni schools are fun and the lessons are a lot of fun. He says his chiloni friends enjoy going to school and he wants this.
I really don’t have anyone to get guidance from. We tried a psychologist but it didn’t work out. I really need a Rabbi or someone who has experience with this situation.


Having been in this situation I feel so so bad for you! Sending hugs.
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amother




Lawngreen


Post  Tue, Jun 12 2018, 9:02 pm
May you be blessed to find the right shaliach now!
hugs and hatzlocha
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yc









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 5:16 am
pm'ed you.
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amother




Azure


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 6:02 am
I taught for years in a chiloni high school and I can assure you they were far stricter than any dati school I taught at.
The dati schools are often a lot more spontaneous/kind of a balagan in terms of administration, whereas many chiloni schools really do run by the book.
The chiloni school was zero tolerance on things like being late (front gate just locked) or phones in class. Or even uniform shirts - they would take a kid out of a bagrut exam if he wasnt wearing the school shirt! The dati school was a lot more forgiving....

So I wouldnt count on this school being a bag of fun. However, if he is set on it and isnt studying elsewhere, it's not like you have much choice. Hopefully it's a good school.
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amother




Ivory


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 7:34 am
junam wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. Ds started off in a charedi school, then moved to chardal, then dati leumi and now barely dati. He wants completely secular. He has this notion that chiloni schools are fun and the lessons are a lot of fun. He says his chiloni friends enjoy going to school and he wants this.
I really don’t have anyone to get guidance from. We tried a psychologist but it didn’t work out. I really need a Rabbi or someone who has experience with this situation.

It's a difficult age and difficult decision. A family I'm close to had the same problem with their son when he was 14. They found a yeshiva somewhere that doesn't focus on learning that much. They have animals there that the teens take care of. The boy was really happy there. For the first time he wasn't a bad learner or bad at concentrating. He knew he had to take care of the animals and after 2 years he was ready to move on and went to a regular yeshiva that wasn't so strict.
He's modern yeshivish now. He's in a great place though. Being in a mixed school... That wouldn't help your son at all. He will fall in love, maybe get his heart broken..his head wouldn't be in his studies. He would focus on impressing girls. Totally normal for that age but not helpful for his situation.
And once he has a girlfriend I think it's even harder to reach him
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junam









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 8:26 am
he has a girlfriend already and its driving him nuts.
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